I wounder how much hotel room occupancy Wakemed soccer complex draws. 
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Although I work in downtown Raleigh, I live in Cary and I feel that we need to be represented in this blog. I am most definitely for the Town of Cary proposal. If memory serves me correctly, I also believe that they are obligated by past agreement to give Cary a certain percentage of the funds (not sure how that works). And Cary has a strong proven track record in providing sports facilities and amenities.
"The recently released Wake County DSP recommends that the county create a countywide sports
complex to increase sports tourism and travel and help Wake County attain its long-term, overnight
visitation goals. A missing element of the countywide sports complex model is an indoor multiuse sports facility to balance the countyâs inventory of outdoor sports fields and venues. The indoor multiuse sports facility would need to be âtournament-readyâ and meet standards set by GRSA and partners within Wake County to ensure the facility is of a caliber that can host tournaments that are targeted in the DSP and have the ability to draw athletes from outside the region. "
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Found a good article on Cary and their soccer complex https://www.newsobserver.com/news/local/counties/wake-county/article166000927.html
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The e-sports component of the Cary proposal is interesting. Thatâs something Iâd like to see in our market, with our techy reputation and big time game developer(s?) in the area, a first class e-sports arena (and maybe a team) would be cool.
Since this is a DTR blog and thread about âRaleigh Stadium/Arena/Sports Discussion,â perhaps I should recommend that this be included in the NCFC proposal/development.
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Onion News Network
âTown of Cary plans to move entire city to the center of the universe after it found out itâs not already the center of the universe.â
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Thatâs the key point niko. Malik has stressed that the 40 acre site has much more development potential than the 13 acre site at the government complex. Theyâre looking at the same type of density on the Penmarc site as the Gov Complex, which would generate much more tax revenue than the annual $11M theyâve requested. If Caraleigh Stadium has the potential to contribute more back to that fund then it receives it sounds like it could actually help to support facilities like Marbles.
Several years ago WakeMed Stadium was increased in size by about 3000 seats (if memory serves) to get the total to 10,000, and add locker room, office, and additional food prep facilites. That was at a site with very poor access to the interstate and beltline, with no real City or Town identity that many people in the Triangle have probably never even driven past. That site was likely originally picked because you had a non-profit soccer org running it, on land that was on the low end of the spectrum. Theyâre bounded by rail to the north, a trailer park on the west, and industrial property on the east. Iâve heard the building in front of the park wasnât included because the state used the site for testing of hazardous ag chemicals. In spite of the siteâs physical location it still warranted an expansion.
If you put a 10,000 seat stadium (expandable to 20,000) in the middle of an intense, mixed use developement, visible from I-40, at the Southern Gateway with a BRT stop, I think youâre going to see the same type of response the Bulls have had when they built the DBAP. It doesnât have to be MLS for the City to get behind their team. Itâs still a fun, family friendly pro sporting event that people are going to want to go to.
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Iâd like to say Iâve done my homework on tax money supporting sports arenas, public/private ROI and tax revenue, etc. etc. but all I can really focus on is the fact that I own a house within short biking distance of this proposed Penmarc site, and I would die if this came true and eventually became an MLS expansion stadium. What a massive 180 for this area, and you better believe that super cool historic water treatment plant would get repurposed into something awesome. Also, FYI all of this is on the greenway with a tunnel that runs under Lake Wheeler and Saunders
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If the project does ultimately generate a lot of new revenue for the city and county (which is possible), it will be because of all other development thatâs proposed, not the stadium itself.
There are 24 franchises in MLS. Of those, 17 have soccer-specific stadiums. Can anyone cite any examples where any of those stadiums activated a ton of development in the area such that that added revenues led to the stadium paying for itself? If there is, Iâd love for someone point to this example. (I can point to a ton where that most definitely didnât happen.) Whatâs more, did the existing 10,000 seat soccer stadium in Wake County lead to a ton of development around that stadium?
The construction of developments like North Hills, The Dillon, etc., etc., were great things for the city, and I am really, really glad they exist. But we didnât pay the developers hundreds of millions of dollars of tax revenues to build those things, nor should we have. The fact that Malik wants to put a soccer stadium in the middle of his in absolutely no way changes the value proposition of this project to the taxpayer.
Malik is suggesting that he could turn a profit on the rest of the project just fine, and I suspect heâs correct. Cool! Then let him just build that part (or pay for a soccer stadium himself if he so chooses; Iâm not trying to tell him he canât do that), and he can keep all the profits, and the city/county can keep all the new tax revenues.
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I donât know if itâs because of the WakeMed Stadium, but directly South of the site Columbia Development has proposed the Fenton project, which is one of the biggest development projects currently on the books for the Triangle. The Fenton Parcel was originally part of the overall State property, and a big part of both developments is the re-alignment of Trinity Road, which will bring traffic from I-40, through Fenton, up to the Soccer Park. There was also a project called the Salem Castle, which was going to be a Medieval Times type of Restaurant directly adjacent to the âCASLâ Soccer Park. That was killed by the recession and nothing has taken itâs place.
In general, the DBAP has spurred a tremendous amount of growth around in it Downtown Durham. Itâs not MLS, but I think the situation is comprable.
I donât know specifics about stadiums in other cities. I donât believe Malik is asking for hundreds of millions of dollars. It seems quite the opposite, as if theyâre privately financing the stadium, and requesting hotel and entertainment tax money to help with the ongoing operations. The stadium âpays for itselfâ in that the tax revenue generated by the project will exceed the $11M/year that theyâve applied for. Itâs like theyâre asking for an $11M/year tax break, not asking the City to pay for the development. That doesnât seem too unreasonable. The question does make me wonder if allocating the hotel tax money to Marbles or a Childrenâs museum would spur any more economic growth than a stadium would? Is it make or break for the Malik/Kane Development team if they donât get the $11M/year or is it a question of City support for a future MLS bid?
Iâm biased as well evan, since I could see myself biking to a stadium in that location.
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WRAL-TV ran a story this evening re: proposed soccer complex. Nothing new except Malik stated Kane has a contract to purchase 40 acres and is working on acquiring adjacent land.
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Thanks for sharing this great article ! What a great project . Really thinking outside of the box , so to speak .
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So its only $11MM/ year NCFC is requesting. Not sure why that would be such an issue. The property taxes generated from the $1Billion+ real estate investment will more than offset $11mil/year
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Exactly. They estimate a 12.5 million annual return back into pool from the entire project. Give 11M get 12.5M. There is no way Marbles, The art museum or even PNC could compete with that ROI. A 1.5B dollar project fronted by Kane/Malik is a dream and Iâm sure the city tax accountants are salivating.
I would guesstimate some, like me, canât get over the âsoccerâ aspect. I may not like the sport, but I sure love $ coming into the kitty and a build out to a dead zone
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So, the 12.5M annually that returns is just to the fund from which they are asking 11M annually? If so, this doesnât include the property tax revenues that will pour into the coffers, or do they get out of property tax if they are in a federal redevelopment zone?
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The property taxes collected from the development is probably mostly from Kaneâs planned development and not related to the soccer stadium. Is Kane not going to develop this if the city doesnât kick in funds for the stadium? I highly doubt it.
@marco âExactly. They estimate a 12.5 million annual return back into pool from the entire project. Give 11M get 12.5M. There is no way Marbles, The art museum or even PNC could compete with that ROI. A 1.5B dollar project fronted by Kane/Malik is a dream and Iâm sure the city tax accountants are salivating.â
You are comparing the ROI of a thing like Marbles, to a 1.5B mix use development project, that would probably happen with or without a stadium. The two are not even remotely similar. If you are going to do that, at least separate the soccer stadium from the rest of the development. What is the rate of return on strictly the soccer stadium as compared to Marbles? I bet the numbers would be a hell of a lot closer then you make them out to be.
Plus, not taking into account the cultural impact projects have, beside strictly ROI.
Look guys. I love soccer and would support an MLS team if they came to Raleigh. Iâm just hesitant for the city (any city) to shell out cash to millionaires to pay for sports stadiums.
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If this is going to generate so much revenue why canât they just get a loan and fund it themselves ? Probably because they know the numbers donât work out. It must be great being a billionaire and having people falling all over themselves to throw money at you.
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The Wake County Room Occupancy and Prepared Food and Beverage Taxes was explicitly created and designed for EXACTLY for these kinds of things. It supports arts, cultures, sports, and conventions. It brings in people into Raleigh and Wake county and they stay at hotels and eat at restaurants that are mostly owned by rich millionaires and billionaires. We are already supporting the rich with these taxes for the Carolina Hurricanes, the North Carolina FC, the Carolina Mudcats (Milwaukee Brewers), etc⌠Let these funds do what they are meant to do. There is absolutely zero amount of tax increases involved with this project and it will be the catalyst for a huge impact project for the city of Raleigh.
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Is it just me, or is anyone else seeing Kaneâs âPrime Districtâ coming into play here⌠North Hills, Smoky Hollow, Dillon, South of RUS, and now this Penmarc development⌠They all form a line through town. It may not be for Amazon, but he is laying the foundation for a dense corridor through the city that will be PRIME for a mass transit line. He just needs to fill in a few gaps (mostly along Capital Blvd/Iron District) plus the 5 Horizons development and the case against a N/S transit line is hard to argue against.
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Look, Iâm 99% in support of this project (I wish it were more DTR) but I am also skeptical with the numbers theyâre throwing out. Theyâre obviously estimates, and require full development and Iâm sure some % leased of the space but theyâre still estimates. Iâm not sure how you can really fact check them though. This is me somewhat thinking out loud. Seems the $11m/yr is almost a stop-gap to get the project going. Maybe there would be more of a guarantee if they didnât necessarily need the full 30 years and maybe ask for 10. That should be sufficient for getting the project going and activated then that $ goes to other useful projects, maybe Dix even? /rant
I love the vision here! Hopefully it is strategic and not coincidence.