# The future of downtown's historic neighborhoods **URL:** \ **Category:** The Pub\ **Created:** [June 28, 2018, 2:23pm UTC](https://community.dtraleigh.com/t/the-future-of-downtowns-historic-neighborhoods/339 "2018-06-28T14:23:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![dtraleigh](https://community.dtraleigh.com/user_avatar/community.dtraleigh.com/dtraleigh/32/32735_2.png) [@dtraleigh](https://community.dtraleigh.com/u/dtraleigh)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2021, 2:58pm UTC](https://community.dtraleigh.com/t/the-future-of-downtowns-historic-neighborhoods/339/63 "2021-10-29T14:58:14Z")
There were other threads where the user was to combative. Not having that in my shop. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![oakcityyimby](https://community.dtraleigh.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/o/779978/32.png) [@oakcityyimby](https://community.dtraleigh.com/u/oakcityyimby)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2021, 4:49pm UTC](https://community.dtraleigh.com/t/the-future-of-downtowns-historic-neighborhoods/339/64 "2021-11-02T16:49:36Z")
An update on three former state-owned houses on Person St that were sold in 2015: [https://www.bizjournals.com/triangle/blog/real-estate/2015/11/historic-houses-person-street-downtown-raleigh.html](https://www.bizjournals.com/triangle/blog/real-estate/2015/11/historic-houses-person-street-downtown-raleigh.html) 411 N. Person (The Watson House - darker blue) is nearly complete. 415 N. Person (The Worth House - light blue) is done and looks move-in ready on the inside, very nicely done. 419 N. Person (The Gay House - green) has a ways to go from the back. Front looks nice, though. ![20211027_115155](https://d3tmycllq5yp1y.cloudfront.net/original/2X/0/0c4640813393235425239d50fac249896524d069.jpeg) ![20211027_115216](https://d3tmycllq5yp1y.cloudfront.net/original/2X/e/efeb3bd08d3877ea4237b939edfd2f07ed1f8cc7.jpeg) ![20211102_121743](https://d3tmycllq5yp1y.cloudfront.net/original/2X/3/349bec88f5a85736923b77b2ddb93a73a180f669.jpeg) ---
**Author:** ![oakcityyimby](https://community.dtraleigh.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/o/779978/32.png) [@oakcityyimby](https://community.dtraleigh.com/u/oakcityyimby)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2021, 10:35pm UTC](https://community.dtraleigh.com/t/the-future-of-downtowns-historic-neighborhoods/339/65 "2021-11-04T22:35:29Z")
Big news for Mordecai, the incredibly sketchy and rundown apartments at 1333-1341 Courtland Drive are empty and now have a big [York Properties](https://yorkproperties.com/) sign out front. Here’s what they look like now, from Google Maps: ![Screen Shot 2021-11-04 at 6.32.07 PM](https://d3tmycllq5yp1y.cloudfront.net/original/2X/d/d832bc0a2d55da61f344aaef48be7b1e01a4f72a.jpeg) ![Screen Shot 2021-11-04 at 6.32.32 PM](https://d3tmycllq5yp1y.cloudfront.net/original/2X/3/3de3fa90a1872f883909fff9aeb16bec384f6efd.jpeg) Wouldn’t be surprising to see them go the way of their sister building next door, which was turned into these beautiful high-end homes. [![](https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/5d936999b34ae0432cbe4bc7/1591898075816-D6ROIQFX3QGSUI9DTHZQ/1345Courtland036.jpg?format=2500w) ](https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/5d936999b34ae0432cbe4bc7/1591898075816-D6ROIQFX3QGSUI9DTHZQ/1345Courtland036.jpg?format=2500w) ---
**Author:** ![Anti-carAction](https://community.dtraleigh.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/a/f04885/32.png) [@Anti-carAction](https://community.dtraleigh.com/u/Anti-carAction)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2021, 12:16am UTC](https://community.dtraleigh.com/t/the-future-of-downtowns-historic-neighborhoods/339/66 "2021-11-05T00:16:35Z")
That would be extremely unfortunate. ---
**Author:** ![atl\_transplant](https://community.dtraleigh.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/a/a183cd/32.png) [@atl\_transplant](https://community.dtraleigh.com/u/atl_transplant)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2021, 12:22am UTC](https://community.dtraleigh.com/t/the-future-of-downtowns-historic-neighborhoods/339/67 "2021-11-05T00:22:58Z")
What makes those sketchy? Yes they’re older but I’ve driven by here plenty and never got that feeling of them being sketchy. Maybe we have different definitions of sketchy. ---
**Author:** ![oakcityyimby](https://community.dtraleigh.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/o/779978/32.png) [@oakcityyimby](https://community.dtraleigh.com/u/oakcityyimby)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2021, 12:29am UTC](https://community.dtraleigh.com/t/the-future-of-downtowns-historic-neighborhoods/339/68 "2021-11-05T00:29:07Z")
More about condition of the property than anything about the residents. It looks like if you give it a good kick they’ll fall over. ---
**Author:** ![atl\_transplant](https://community.dtraleigh.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/a/a183cd/32.png) [@atl\_transplant](https://community.dtraleigh.com/u/atl_transplant)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2021, 12:41am UTC](https://community.dtraleigh.com/t/the-future-of-downtowns-historic-neighborhoods/339/69 "2021-11-05T00:41:50Z")
Fair enough! They are in pretty rough shape. The houses next to them may be 3 of my favorite in the city tbh ---
**Author:** ![oakcityyimby](https://community.dtraleigh.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/o/779978/32.png) [@oakcityyimby](https://community.dtraleigh.com/u/oakcityyimby)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2021, 12:55am UTC](https://community.dtraleigh.com/t/the-future-of-downtowns-historic-neighborhoods/339/70 "2021-11-05T00:55:52Z")
It’s about as family-oriented of a neighborhood as they come (so the floorplans will probably be on the 2-3BR order), the land values are through the roof and rising, and its a decent walk from the nearest retail district at Person St. Some luxury townhouses might be a good way to keep some kind of density, but they’re not doing anything more urban or affordable than that. And those apartments have to come down, they look like they haven’t been maintained since the 90s. ---
**Author:** ![OakdaleZach](https://community.dtraleigh.com/user_avatar/community.dtraleigh.com/oakdalezach/32/20181_2.png) [@OakdaleZach](https://community.dtraleigh.com/u/OakdaleZach)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2021, 2:35pm UTC](https://community.dtraleigh.com/t/the-future-of-downtowns-historic-neighborhoods/339/71 "2021-11-06T14:35:51Z")
Does anyone have any more information on the old “Tiny Town” community? I found the article below, but would love to learn more about the history. > **[After 70 years, a historic Raleigh neighborhood is no more. A requiem for...](https://indyweek.com/news/70-years-historic-raleigh-neighborhood-more.-requiem-tiny-town/)** ---
**Author:** ![oakcityyimby](https://community.dtraleigh.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/o/779978/32.png) [@oakcityyimby](https://community.dtraleigh.com/u/oakcityyimby)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2021, 9:17pm UTC](https://community.dtraleigh.com/t/the-future-of-downtowns-historic-neighborhoods/339/72 "2021-12-10T21:17:41Z")
Lavish Christmas decorations are fully up on the big mansions in Oakwood ![20211209_174457](https://d3tmycllq5yp1y.cloudfront.net/original/2X/6/6fdc0aa5f9d8b47b63b1749931af68c655d5c4f6.jpeg) ![20211209_174523](https://d3tmycllq5yp1y.cloudfront.net/original/2X/8/80c31cca03c674e3b3dd51182e4de2c27e8a8033.jpeg) ![20211209_175807](https://d3tmycllq5yp1y.cloudfront.net/original/2X/5/58b5a97216dabbb6e8644547008ee5534509a78e.jpeg) ---
**Author:** ![oakcityyimby](https://community.dtraleigh.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/o/779978/32.png) [@oakcityyimby](https://community.dtraleigh.com/u/oakcityyimby)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2021, 10:58pm UTC](https://community.dtraleigh.com/t/the-future-of-downtowns-historic-neighborhoods/339/73 "2021-12-10T22:58:47Z")
There’s flyers for this all over Mordecai. Hmm. > **[Mordecai Community - MHPC](https://www.mordecaicac.org/MHPC)** > > Join us: > Contact us: mhpc@mordecaicac.org > November 2021: Do you own a home in the Mordecai Place Historic District? If so, please respond to this survey. > View the July 20 Special Meeting video for important information about HODs and NCODs, presented... ---
**Author:** ![NoRaAintAllBad](https://community.dtraleigh.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/n/9de053/32.png) [@NoRaAintAllBad](https://community.dtraleigh.com/u/NoRaAintAllBad)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2021, 11:14pm UTC](https://community.dtraleigh.com/t/the-future-of-downtowns-historic-neighborhoods/339/74 "2021-12-10T23:14:57Z")
This probably should go in the ‘Show Off’ thread but it connects to historic properties and construction / renovation within…reminds me of the hullabaloo around the modern house built on an Oakwood infill lot a few years back. Glad I don’t live in a ‘histrionic’ overlay… TL:DR - a ‘renovation’ of the penthouse apartment in a historic building adjacent to Central park has a faction of folks who simply think it doesn’t belong > **[Neri Oxman and husband told to alter Norman Foster design for their New York...](https://www.dezeen.com/2021/12/09/neri-oxman-bill-ackman-norman-foster-new-york-penthouse/)** > > Architect and designer Neri Oxman and her husband, the hedge fund manager Bill Ackman, have been told to modify plans drawn up by Norman Foster for a glass penthouse on a 1920s building in New York. ---
**Author:** ![oakcityyimby](https://community.dtraleigh.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/o/779978/32.png) [@oakcityyimby](https://community.dtraleigh.com/u/oakcityyimby)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2021, 11:25pm UTC](https://community.dtraleigh.com/t/the-future-of-downtowns-historic-neighborhoods/339/75 "2021-12-10T23:25:48Z")
I think some of the “contemporary” houses in Mordecai (and Oakwood) are pretty ugly, but man those historic districts can add some incredible bureaucracy to even simple changes if they’re not implemented thoughtfully. ---
**Author:** ![John](https://community.dtraleigh.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/j/a3d4f5/32.png) [@John](https://community.dtraleigh.com/u/John)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2021, 2:34pm UTC](https://community.dtraleigh.com/t/the-future-of-downtowns-historic-neighborhoods/339/76 "2021-12-11T14:34:57Z")
I’ll have to say that I agree with the constructive criticism of the design. Clearly the couple want more space by adding the second level to the rooftop penthouse. The existing pink stucco penthouse is a single floor, and a single floor glass box will (in my opinion) improve the overall look of the building. ---
**Author:** ![NoRaAintAllBad](https://community.dtraleigh.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/n/9de053/32.png) [@NoRaAintAllBad](https://community.dtraleigh.com/u/NoRaAintAllBad)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2021, 3:31pm UTC](https://community.dtraleigh.com/t/the-future-of-downtowns-historic-neighborhoods/339/77 "2021-12-11T15:31:10Z")
Agreed - certainly the couple is asking for an extraordinary amount of space for the city… I watched the Zoom after I laughed through the captioning and comments Dezeen chose to call out. 85% support in the building, structure effectively the same height as the former stacks on the pink stucco penthouse, shorter than the adjacent structures (water tower), already acquiesced certain aspects to neighborhood response regarding scale / step back of top floor studio / light well / elevator over-runs and mechanical structure positioning (which could easily have been just plunked on top like those prior stacks). I appreciated the comments that “appropriateness exists along a spectrum” and the changing context of the neighborhood should embrace evolution in a given district. The comments against seem directed not from a place of height issues but more from issue with aesthetics and/or ‘ostentatious wealth posturing’. Hopefully they’ll find common ground. Pretty fascinating to envision walking around in all that architectural context from neighborhood street level and worrying about its visibility. Seems more about views of it from the park and its context in the world today. ---
**Author:** ![GucciLittlePig](https://community.dtraleigh.com/user_avatar/community.dtraleigh.com/guccilittlepig/32/25831_2.png) [@GucciLittlePig](https://community.dtraleigh.com/u/GucciLittlePig)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2021, 6:09am UTC](https://community.dtraleigh.com/t/the-future-of-downtowns-historic-neighborhoods/339/78 "2021-12-12T06:09:26Z")
I still just love the idea that the community (or the vocal few who care) get to dictate what an individual does with their home, while across the region corporations drastically change the landscape with their various new projects. For the record, I fully support the new developments, just noting how the focus is turned on the individual because a few people have the legal opportunity to make their objections tangible. ---
**Author:** ![oakcityyimby](https://community.dtraleigh.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/o/779978/32.png) [@oakcityyimby](https://community.dtraleigh.com/u/oakcityyimby)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2022, 2:45pm UTC](https://community.dtraleigh.com/t/the-future-of-downtowns-historic-neighborhoods/339/79 "2022-02-01T14:45:00Z")
It’s the other side of St. Aug’s from Oakwood, but this is probably the closest relevant thread. Walked by the big Washington Terrace redevelopment the other day - plenty of construction equipment at the Booker South site: [Washington Terrace Redevelopment | DHIC | Home to Opportunity](https://dhic.org/properties/under-development/village-washington-terrace/) It’s a perfectly nice-looking development with laudable aims, but Booker North is a real miss for the neighborhood in terms of form. It’s directly in the middle of a college, a high school, and a strip full of small independent businesses, and it’s just this black hole of berms and parking. Even for affordable senior housing, the lack of engagement with the neighborhood is really sad: [![](https://dhic.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/09/DSC_3540-HDR-e1568226558976.jpg) ](https://dhic.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/09/DSC_3540-HDR-e1568226558976.jpg) (not my picture) Looking at the site plan, it feels like the “Village” section should have been in that public-facing section instead. ---
**Author:** ![mike](https://community.dtraleigh.com/user_avatar/community.dtraleigh.com/mike/32/26_2.png) [@mike](https://community.dtraleigh.com/u/mike)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2022, 7:40pm UTC](https://community.dtraleigh.com/t/the-future-of-downtowns-historic-neighborhoods/339/80 "2022-02-02T19:40:19Z")
These 6 lots (1333 through 1343 Courtland Drive) → 17 “cottage court” houses. ![image](https://d3tmycllq5yp1y.cloudfront.net/original/2X/6/687a08e0842191cdc9acf5c80a0b29af08fd36bc.jpeg) > **[20220214PLANDEVBOA-0083-2021.pdf](https://go.boarddocs.com/nc/raleigh/Board.nsf/files/CB9PMJ654A3F/%24file/20220214PLANDEVBOA-0083-2021.pdf)** ---
**Author:** ![oakcityyimby](https://community.dtraleigh.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/o/779978/32.png) [@oakcityyimby](https://community.dtraleigh.com/u/oakcityyimby)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2022, 7:41pm UTC](https://community.dtraleigh.com/t/the-future-of-downtowns-historic-neighborhoods/339/81 "2022-02-02T19:41:42Z")
Interesting! MUCH more density than I was expecting, which is nice. Don’t exactly love ringing it entirely with a new street. Given how many “fronts” those houses have, architectural quality needs to be important on more than one side, but this neighborhood is pricey enough it should justify that. ---
**Author:** ![oakcityyimby](https://community.dtraleigh.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/o/779978/32.png) [@oakcityyimby](https://community.dtraleigh.com/u/oakcityyimby)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2022, 5:04pm UTC](https://community.dtraleigh.com/t/the-future-of-downtowns-historic-neighborhoods/339/82 "2022-04-13T17:04:42Z")
[https://community.dtraleigh.com/t/the-raleigh-wire-service/748/1749?u=oakcityyimby](https://community.dtraleigh.com/t/the-raleigh-wire-service/748/1749) The plan is real: [https://cityofraleigh0drupal.blob.core.usgovcloudapi.net/drupal-prod/COR15/ASR-0028-2022.pdf](https://cityofraleigh0drupal.blob.core.usgovcloudapi.net/drupal-prod/COR15/ASR-0028-2022.pdf) [Previous page](https://community.dtraleigh.com/t/the-future-of-downtowns-historic-neighborhoods/339.md?page=3) [Next page](https://community.dtraleigh.com/t/the-future-of-downtowns-historic-neighborhoods/339.md?page=5)