The future of downtown's historic neighborhoods

We are family of 5 in 2100 sqft townhouse. Not downtown, but in a kicka$$ walkable neighborhood in NW Raleigh. :stuck_out_tongue:

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That is so awesome! I’m a firm believer in not needing a ton of space. My mom’s family of four lived in a 900 sq ft, 2 bed/1 bath house in Miami with no air conditioning and managed to not kill each other. I know it can be done!

The only reason we’re considering an addition is because I have a small business I’m currently running from the guest bedroom closet! We only have two bedrooms, so it’s not ideal.

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I mean billions of people live like that or worse. I’m just glad I’m not one of them.

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Thanks for sharing this, @Deb. I can’t help but wonder the motivations behind those that were in near downtown and then decide to move out. I hear a lot of “needs” for more space but I wonder if there are other variables at play here, obvious or subtle. Not to debate the amount of space one actually NEEDS (other, more controversial topic) I typically think factors here are:

  1. We slow down as we age. Friends of mine moved downtown for the nightlife and restaurants. As we’re aging, we’re not out as much so that access, simply put, doesn’t seem so important. This is especially true if that was the main reason you moved here for.
  2. You can sell the downtown place and get a bigger place in the burbs. For the cost, you just get MORE in the burbs and when you consider point #1, if you are not out as much I guess you are at home more, meaning your house becomes more of a priority.
  3. I still think there is a “keeping up with the joneses” mentality, generally speaking so people are “moving up” by going bigger. We haven’t totally shed the consumer lifestyle I’m afraid.
  4. The suburbs have the entire supply chain around raising kids. All the shops, daycare, sports, entertainment, whatever, it’s all their in the suburbs. Yes, Raleigh has it but it’s not as easy or convenient as the suburbs, or it’s not as obvious, so it reinforces the mentality that when you have kids, time to pack it up and move out.

FWIW, we’re two parents with one kid in a 3 bed 1250 sq ft house and are perfectly fine. We are planning a small addition and then one day (hopefully) an ADU. That’s paradise for me and I’m set for life. :sunglasses:

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After visiting my Grandmother for the first time in Russia who lives in the same Soviet (Khrushchyovka) apartment that my mom and her extended family shared - it really put things into perspective. I am in the same situation as you - 1250 sf with one kid on the way. Planning a garage and hopefully a small addition. I would like to keep it that way.

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Similar. 1600 sqft, 3 bd 2 ba and a bonus room but poorly laid out due to a hack job on the updating. One on the way as well (congrats btw). It feels tight and we don’t have much stuff. 4 bikes. 1 cat. 1 bookshelf. one closet is heavily used hiking/camping gear. I think a better layout would really help as travel paths make some furniture placement tough etc. (you listening architects?..just leave room for HVAC and plumbing lol))

This is an interesting conversation - I’m actually moving to London this summer and we’re likely to end up with ~ 900 sq ft for our family of 5 - oldest kid is 14. How much space do we really “need”??

I think Leo’s comment about as families age up - from no kids > small kids > bigger kids - the things that are attractive to a young couple in urban Raleigh are different than that of a family with small kids and then again different than that of a family with school age kids.

The things that the larger families are seeking (other than living space) are possible to be provided in an urban context, but Raleigh hasn’t matured to the point of having them readily available.

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This idea that that every kid needs their own room and a large backyard to play in is baffling to me. I grew up sharing a room with my brother. We played in the neighborhood, rode our bikes to the park, played hockey in the streets and walked to school. And this was in the often maligned and critically dangerous City of Buffalo. These concepts are completely foreign to kids/parents down here. If you view your actual neighborhood/city as living space then you don’t need 4500 sf.

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I didn’t mean to sound like the guy that needs the most/more space at all. Without providing details on my house, I was trying to feebly call attention to efficient layouts. I have a teeny tiny yard. With no junk to speak of, I could get down to 800-1000 ft no prob with one kid if I could move the cat outdoors (litter box takes up a corner) and store the bikes safely outside or in a loft space. I did live in the Brooklyn area of Glenwood in 700 sqft with my SO with 2 bikes and about the same furniture and it we loved it. That apartment was so well laid out, I plan to use it in anything I build myself one day.

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I’m not sure anyone is calling anyone else out. Sorry if you took it that way.

For everyone, I think if you want that big house, by all means! Raleigh really should accommodate all tastes which means, in my view, that the larger house product is covered and mature right now. It’s the smaller house options that can accommodate those same number of human beings that we don’t have and aren’t serving by having the things that humans need close by to make it work logistically.

A huge criticism of downtown Raleigh was that it didn’t have a grocery store. Well, here it is. What’s the reason for not moving downtown now? My guess is price.

Bringing this back to the topic’s title, the historic neighborhoods have a close relationship with downtown and I see pressure on these neighborhoods increasing as downtown does NOT grow as much as it should. With less apartment supply in the downtown area and prices going up, the next layer to look at are the historic neighborhoods and those with tastes for more space will be looking to renovate or even demolish if they have the means. (that’s putting it way too simply though)

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Sorry I wasn’t trying to imply anything about anyone, just that smaller spaces are possible for families. I agree that layout efficiency could be improved.

With Modecai/Oakwood/Boylan + Cameron Park/Glenwood Brooklyn/Hillsborough areas - price is the problem - and the fact that these historic neighborhoods are largely the only ones in the city that offer any form of urban living for families. Hence why they are some of the most expensive neighborhoods in the city. We need to figure out ways to add more housing in these areas (small units/missing middle), but also build more neighborhoods that look like them.

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well while everyone is talking about how older people move to suburbs and to bigger housed, guess I’m doing to become the exception. About retired with one of those 4000sf houses and another 1500 in decks actually outside the burgs. In next few years I’m going thinking(1) to sale out and move into a city, not sure where yet. Right now thinking of maybe a 1200sq condo or small house. Two bed room, with second being office/libaray/guest room. Maybe not central city but close enough to easily reach city center. I love living where I am now but know that someday the physical upkeep will get to be to much. Also by selling out here can pay cash for a smaller place and have a lot left over for travel and other activities. A number of people I know have done the same and move into one of those 55+ communities but not sure I want to be around a lot of mentally old people - lol.

(1) Thinking of moving and in retirement plan but may be hard to pull me away from where I am.

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No you’re all totally good…I was just sheepish about my own comment and wanted to make sure I was counted in the ‘less is more’ camp.

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I also think finding ways to expand the downtown-like areas needs to be discussed. Like say, rip out the Dawson/McDowell connector (what most call S Saunders) and put in proper urban grid all the way to Maywood Ave e.g. Getting some more into the existing grid is good in some spots and is certainly part of several conversations (lower cost downtown, reducing sprawl into shrinking green space, maximizing use of already paid for streets and sidewalks and sewers, etc.)

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This is about the present of Oakwood, but I love this Halloween house every year. They even have a covid Slimer

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Next Tuesday, City Council will consider selecting the Raleigh Area Land Trust to build eight duplexes and one SFH in the Lane-Idlewild assemblage near Oakwood Cemetery, just a few blocks away from a New Bern BRT station.

The land trust apparently had the proposal with the densest developing while maintaining a sound financial plan allowing for the longest duration of housing affordability. It’ll be neat to see denser(ish?) housing around these parts, as well as how successful this new business model will be!

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Of all the proposals, that one seemed on the low end of density. From the way it looks though, totally predictable the City picked it.

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Interesting project popped up on the RHDC COA agenda for 1115 West Lenoir Street at the edge of Boylan Heights.

Small parking lot, dog park, cafe/bar/patio.

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OMG. They are creating shadows!

Shade…it’s a North Carolinian’s summer friend or a NIMBY’s worst fear :face_with_hand_over_mouth:

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