Bus Rapid Transit (BRT) in Raleigh

[Jake]

WOW! What an idea!!! How could they not have thought about that??? (I’m not clowning you at all, I’m clowning the city for putting such stupid and unnecessary barriers on this to begin with lol)

[OakCityDylan]

@keita

the article also mentions that we’ve already bought the seven BRT-specific buses to do this

So, the busses will be 4 years old (at least) by the time they start using them?

[Jake]

RIGHT lol. Honestly a toddler could’ve planned this all better at this point JFC.

[GucciLittlePig]

Completely agree with this entire post.

[UncleJesse]

We seriously couldn’t have contacted the firms that built this exact same thing in Richmond??!! WTF

[keita]

@North_Raleigh_Scum

Has staff underestimated cost and time needed?

Yes, because the city stretched out the delivery timeline for the new bid from 2 years to three only after the embarrassing feedback from interested contractors.

Also, when you do big initiatives like these, “a contractor is interested” doesn’t just mean that a city staffer heard that by text from one of their contractor buddies. Instead, contractors who want to bid for public works projects have to submit a formal Request for Proposals (RFP) as the start of a strict process to evaluate the “best” bidder. So the fact that multiple contractors put in time, money, and effort to respond to the latest bid effort but that second attempt STILL failed should tell you just how much the hurricane shifted market trends.

@North_Raleigh_Scum

@orulz

I wonder how much of this bid-reject-rebid stuff goes on behind the scenes for things like NCDOT highway projects.

Probably not to the same extent given there’s no shortage of contractors that know how to build highways.

This makes me wonder two things, though:

1. How different is the roadwork component of BRT-building versus traditional road expansion projects, especially if you ignore the station component?
2. How insular or innovative are road construction companies? Do they put a lot of effort into innovating how they work or in understanding how the market changes over time, or do they just struggle with the day-to-day to the point that they don’t have the bandwidth to see BRT as a new, soon-to-blow-up market for our state?

[keita]

@Jake

Perfect, it’ll only be 2 generations behind from what is actually needed lmao. I’m really not optimistic about this at all [because I think] further BRT lines will get canceled, then this New Bern BRT line will eventually [halt, and] this whole charade will start over and waste another lifetime of essentially zero public transport […]

Sorry to be so negative, but it’s objectively embarrassing for a city of our current size and growth rate to lack any sort of urgency on providing legitimate public transpo.

I think you are being negative - but also, I’d be lying if I said I’m not pissed, too

I think the broader issue, here, is more about how local governments are forced to work these days is something that we, the people, technically brought onto ourselves. (The Ezra Klein Show podcast that @evan.j.bost posted a while back should be required reading for anyone in this conversation, if you ask me!)

Because of this, I genuinely don’t understand how you could make our transit projects happen any faster unless you either:

1. Have Elon Musk-levels of “fuck you” money to do hostile takeovers of hundreds of properties throughout the Triangle. Then, if you somehow survive the avalanche of lawsuits that doing so would bring unto you, you could “just” build what you see as the “perfect” transit solutions yourself, and no one could stop you, I guess.

2. Get the state to grant total immunity from environmental or civil rights lawsuits for transit agencies, cities etc. to bring about public works projects. (Good luck getting anyone to agree to that!)

3. Nationalize all public transit projects so that the federal government can centralize project management and optimize supply chains. This way, construction projects for Raleigh’s BRT lines could benefit from economies of scale from being bundled up with other, similar projects across the country. (if you thought the previous point screamed “dictatorship”,… lol)

[evan.j.bost]

Like our highway expansion programs!
I don’t know that NCDOT has immunity on new highways pillaging our farmland and countryside, but it sure seems that way

[Kanatenah]

You mean like this monster of an interchange.

[evan.j.bost]

Yes…

I am very curious to see how successful the “bypass” nature of 540 is now that travelers from Wilmington can pay $6-8? to swing wide through Cary and save…5 minutes?

With very little density south of 440 I just think 540 south is a boondoggle.

[TedF]

That is not how people will be using it on the most part. Why would any driver coming from Wilmington direction use it to continue towards Durham and beyond? They wouldn’t. It’s more for locals.

[John]

I can see it being used by more long haul tractor trailers who want to bypass the city congestion.

[TDR]

Right now (Saturday morning) Google Maps predicts staying on I-40 would be 4 minutes faster than the toll road.

However avoiding weekday rush hour congestion might be worth the toll for someone trying to use the interstate system to get somewhere in a predictable and timely manner.

Seems a disproportionate expense for convenience, particularly now. But reasonable to assume that the I-40 corridor could completely succumb to local use in the future during more than just rush hours.

When Wendover Avenue was constructed in Greensboro the reaction was why do we need this overbuilt expressway when we have Bessemer Avenue paralleling it? Now hard to imagine functioning without it.

[Kanatenah]

Induced demand. More roads/ lanes just lead to more congestion as the area is developed. That section of south of 40 and the new toll road will soon resemble north Raleigh sprawl.

[John]

It will interesting to see if an expensive toll road induces demand in the same that way a free road does.

[RaleighRob]

@keita

How different is the roadwork component of BRT-building versus traditional road expansion projects, especially if you ignore the station component?

This one is easy to answer: Any contractor in this state that does multi-lane highway projects could easily bid for the roadwork component if they want to. I’m certain of that part.
Now…the stations, the timed-stoplights, etc etc—that may need more specialized subcontractors. But the actual bus lanes are not really any more-complex compared to other urban roadway projects I’ve seen.

[Bryan]

It’s already happening around the new 540 in Garner.

https://experience.arcgis.com/experience/ec7734ed753f4b0f83de1a109b8b0db1

[keita]

Thanks for clarifying. Yeah, that’s what I assumed for the roadwork component, but I just wanted to be sure.

So, then, would that mean the hurricane + lack of innovative construction companies are really that pervasive as reasons why we’re struggling so hard with BRT construction? If so, to tie this into my other post (and the 540-bashing that this has caused - my bad y’all), it’s surprising and infuriating to me that neither our highway obsessions nor our state’s investments in “smart” infrastructure is leading to broader apparent changes.

[orulz]

I believe I have heard that FTA grants come with tons of strings attached. Maybe bidders are either just staying away, or else padding their bids by quite a lot to make dealing with the hassle worth their while.

Or maybe the city’s engineers just underestimated the project.

[RaleighRob]

Plus inflation. If the city got to the figure 3-4 years ago it’s possible that it needs to be adjusted for 2025 amounts.
And yes, I’m sure the hurricane creating more “demand” for crews work adds to that as well.