Strongly agree with this. That’s part of the reason why I hate the commuter focus. I think this region is underestimating the ways in which true regional rail would tie Durham and Raleigh together while still keeping them distinct. I don’t really like driving to Durham very much… I-40 is a mess (even on weekends), US-70 isn’t much better, and it’s just long enough of a drive to be kind of annoying. But if I can hop on a train on a Saturday morning at almost any time I want (instead of the two AM options we currently get with Amtrak) and return sometime in the evening, I’m more inclined to visit. That’s more business for downtown Durham. We really need to start viewing these types of projects as investments, not expenses.
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Raleigh is more densely populated than Durham, and Wake is more densely populated than Durham County. Raleigh’s MSA is more densely populated than Durham’s.
All we hear is how sprawling Raleigh is, and it’s often coupled with how urban Durham is, but it’s not supported by the data.
Wake’s “sprawliness” as you call it is exactly why Wake is better positioned to utilize a commuter system with ridership because those increasingly dense suburban communities represent the cars that we need to take off the roads.
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It’s amazing to me, the narrative around Durham… Just last night I heard someone say “Durham has amazing restaurants”… which is true, insofar as it is true for any medium sized revitalizing city in the South 
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About the population density thing... (click me if you care, since it's off-topic for this thread)
I think we had a debate a long time ago about density as a metric for sprawl? I’ve been trying to learn more since then, but I still feel like there has to be better ways to define and measure it. I agree that low density is one feature of sprawling neighborhoods, but I also think there’s more to it than just that.
For example, low density in census tracts doesn’t always translate to sprawling communities. I tend to picture “sprawling” suburbs as being very difficult to move around in and/or get out of, such as a sea of cul-de-sacs. I think it makes more sense, then, to measure sprawl by seeing how disconnected neighborhoods are in a small area, or how tortuous roads and paths are.
There are several metrics out there that an measure development sprawl in those non-density-based approaches. Using the first link, both Durham County as a whole and areas near non-RTP Durham Co. station sites appear to have lower SNDi indices than those near Wake Co. stations outside of city downtowns.
Wait, what? Your quote of me was about how to split the cost of building commuter rail. I agree with you about Wake being better positioned to take advantage of rail, but I’m struggling to see why the Raleigh-Durham rivalry matters for this??
If I had to guess your intentions, the rail corridor seems to have more affordable housing and major employment clusters near Wake County stations. But this just implies passengers traveling within Wake County would benefit the most from, as @colbyjd3 called it, this regional investment. Doesn’t that just add to @orulz and my point that it is fair for Wake to put more money into this than Durham?
At this month’s meetup, @OakCityDylan mentioned taking the train to a Bulls game not too long ago and that they had to leave before the end of the game to make the last train of the night to get back to Raleigh. I think more trains on a consistent schedule would do wonders, especially on weekends since GoTriangle seems allergic to having the 100/700/800 pulsing at the RTC for easy transfers.
Part of me thinks that it’s high time we upgrade service on the DRX/CRX, perhaps to coaches and a higher price point when/if fares return. But would an hourly DRX run be an easy out for Durham to abandon rail?
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That was I, sir.
On here I see a lot of interest in using the train as a way to access nightlife and entertainment. Which, don’t get me wrong - it can do that, but running a train frequently enough to be convenient all the way through nightlife hours is not typically the lowest hanging fruit when it comes to increasing ridership through added service. Having the last train from Durham leave at 10 or 11pm is probably in the cards, maybe even midnight on Friday and Saturday, but I would be wary of getting my hopes too high for this to be useful for a real, late night out. At least at first. I would hope they look at boosting midday frequency before trying to schedule the last train of the night to depart Durham at 1 or 2am or whatever.
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Sad news—a man was hit and killed by an Amtrak train last night at Beryl Rd. Stay off the tracks, folks.
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We have the resources and financial support, we just have to use it wisely.
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No, we don’t. Well, “we”, the potential of American people, probably have the means to do it. But local/state governments and transit agencies don’t actually have the money and resources to do so.
American transit agencies rely on federal grants to build new rail systems, and they’re incentivized to use cheaper, used diesel train sets. Adding electrical wires to rail is very expensive and politically touchy, so cash- and manpower-strapped transit operators don’t have a lot of good reasons to do that. Plus, as we talked about before, battery-based trains aren’t at a point where they can be embraced by American rail services. Even if they were, American rail operators also don’t have a way for the extra cost of electric trains to be canceled out in the same way as electric buses, so there’s that too.
I agree that we should do that for environmental, engineering, and long-term economical reasons. But there’s a political cost that needs to be paid for, too, and I think it’s naive to just ignore that.
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Watching the show “Mighty Trains” on Smithsonian yesterday, they did the route across northern Spain and down the coast of the Bay of Biscay, and talked about the duel-fuel engine used. Some of the line is electrified, but most of it is not so the engine can run on diesel or electricity. They talked about the hurdle being the expense of electrifying rail in the mountains, but also over limited-use lines. There is a number of trains per day where electrification makes economic sense. For the US, there are few lines that can justify the expense of electrification at this time. While I am all for planning for the future, I think there are other priorities in regards to rail currently.
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This is one of the things that excites me about Amtrak opting to purchase dual-mode locomotives for routes that connect to the Northeast Corridor. I think this opens the door to justifying the incremental electrification of other lines in the future.
Let’s take NCRR for example. Say, through some miracle, NCDOT decides that they want to get the entire Piedmont Corridor electrified (hey, I can dream). Without dual-modes, the Carolinian would not be able to take advantage of that electrification unless either a) NCDOT, VDOT, and CSX worked together to also electrify the tracks running between Raleigh and DC, or b) Amtrak opted for a second engine change in Raleigh in addition to the one they already do in DC. Both of these options are a lot of work and money for a single route, or even the five or so round trips between CLT and NYC that are supposedly planned for the future. However, electrification of NCRR by itself is pretty reasonable when you’re talking about ten or so round trips per day between the SEHSR and the Piedmont service (not to mention potential commuter rail using the same corridor).
It’s wishful thinking, sure, and I don’t think this is Amtrak’s intent with the dual-mode purchase (they simply want to eliminate the locomotive changes that occur in DC and Philly). That being said, it’s a good option to have, especially if there’s a major shift in transportation funding over the next ten to fifteen years. One can dream.
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If the country used its money wisely we would have the financial support. If we stopped using billions for the military and used more money on education and transportation, etc. we could “afford” this.
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Musings from Sacramento CA.
In hotel for last 3 days across from commuter rail next to a mall.
I can see the stop from my window. Been watching off and on.
Stations are almost always empty.
Trains are almost always empty.
Gas is super expensive.
Ride to downtown is relatively cheaper than a gallon of gas.
Nice people leave food for other people to eat.
I thought wow this is a beefy transit system, what gives. I suppose the government subsidies make it all worth it.
Is this this future of transit in Raleigh, no one rides at rush hour or all day? I hope not.
Some things don’t make sense like why is congress exempt from the vaccine and you are not?
Anyway, happy day to all.
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Thanks for the post. I value this opinion.
Transit ridership everywhere is still way down from COVID, but I suppose it’s an open question as to whether it will ever return.
Some of Sacramento LRT’s problems are because of design decisions made during its planning, others are just because of the difficulty of attracting a substantial rider base to a transit line in a sunbelt town with generally unsupportive land use and a lot of sprawl.
If, and as, we implement commuter rail in the Triangle, this is the outcome that we must endeavor to avoid. It will certainly be an uphill battle for us, given the below:
I happen to believe that doing so is essential for the future of our city, country, and planet, in spite of the cost, difficulty, and risk - but it’s important that we do it as well as possible, which certainly is not going to be easy and there will be plenty of bumps along the way.
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What is the point of this comment?
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That is a question. But it’s off topic.
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It doesn’t have to be. I’ve never been to Sacramento, but it doesn’t look like the area you’re staying in is particularly dense. A neighborhood that is built for driving will attract drivers. And, frankly, most of the station locations that are planned for GoTriangle’s commuter rail project are in a similar boat.
That’s where TOD comes in, and that’s why I’m glad that the City of Raleigh is working on these text changes now instead of after build-out of BRT/CRT (like many American cities have done). The good news is that there are a lot of parcels near these planned stations that are ripe for development. Those parcels can basically be, well, whatever we want them to be. In some respects, the Triangle is in an ideal situation for developing high-ridership lines, because we still have the opportunity to shape what’s built around those lines. Most transit development in North America is reactive instead of proactive, and by then, it’s often too late to develop space that encourages ridership. We have an opportunity to be ahead of the curve here, if we do it right.
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You could work for the USPS, luckily for them they have just under the threshold of 100 employees to require all business over 100 employees to require vaccination. Yup at just over 600,000 employees working nationwide going door-to-door delivering mail, they have just barely avoided that threshold.
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There is a mall and the stop is right behind a Target. I can only report what me eyez is being told by me brain, no guessing here.
Point is that is does not matter if it is used or not, it will just BE.
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