Haha honestly yea none of this will make a difference when the road becomes bogged down. It’s just like ramp meters, they help when congestion is starting or ending but in the middle, nothing.
With that said though, the signals at least being coordinated to a set speed is huge. 25 vs 30 vs 35 just won’t make a difference in rush hour.
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Why is it such a big deal to get the actual speed limit reduced on McDowell and Dawson? Plenty of examples of US/NC highways with lower speed limits exist. Mainline US25 goes through Downtown Asheville as Broadway Street and Biltmore Avenue. It’s 20mph through the core.
If getting McDowell and Dawson reduced to 25mph is a bureaucratic hassle because of all the process and paperwork - then just file the stupid paperwork and follow the dumb process and make it happen.
I am certainly heartened to hear that they have re-timed the lights for 25mph though. I actually wonder if changing the timing is an end-run around the bureaucratic headache. It could be they are explicitly trying to bring the 85th percentile speed down below 30- which, if I understand things correctly, would allow them to lower the speed limit without any difficulty at all.
BTW if you guys aren’t familiar with the 85th percentile rule for setting speed limits, go read up. It’s insane.
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Another example: Mainline US64 goes through downtown Hendersonville NC as a one-way pair. Also 20mph. US 321 in Boone? 20mph. Shall I go on?
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Dawson / McDowell carry 25k vehicles each.
I think there’s a hard NO at a certain point due to volumes and Functional Classification. Dawson / McDowell carry a significant freight % and have regional significance on top of their volumes. I think the city probably tried and were told no since they’ve timed the signals like this.
Also, US 1 in DT Henderson only carries 8K both directions combined. US 25 is also under 10K per day in Asheville. Dawson / McDowell both directions is 50K so huge difference. Not arguing against 25 MPH here but it’s definitely apples to oranges looking at it like that. 22,000 for the Boone Rd but it’s single lane.
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Since the big trend is “I believe in SCIENCE”, I love that you bring science of roads and traffic to this discussion, of why roads have speed limits they have, and what’s unique about Raleigh’s lack of freeway to make our roads busy, and how people use which roads. It’s fact based and non-emotional. Keep it up. Very helpful insights.
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Thanks! My main takeaways would be that everything traffic wise is complicated. And if there were an easy fix to all the issues we face in the region, they’d be fixed! But hopefully I’ve brought some value to these discussions.
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Agree. Although it has to be said that transportation planning is a combination of science and values.
Do we prioritize reducing congestion (which in effect prioritizes economic activity) or do we prioritize people’s ability to walk across the store to get to the street safely? There’s no 100% science-based answer to that one.
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I’m still extremely new to the industry so I’m sure this is a rather new development or maybe just a focus by the company I work for but, the big focus these days seems to be safety first, then everything else.
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Agreed. We can’t just look at any road as if it exists in a vacuum and its only purpose is to maximize itself. There are communities that they serve and communities that they impact. For far too long the priority of roads in our urban centers has been to serve the people who don’t live there by making it more convenient for them with little regard for the impacted communities downtown.
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I have to disagree a little here. From the outside this may be what it seems but there has to be a happy medium. Can’t swing the pendulum from one side or the other. Otherwise downtown just stops growing and becomes an elite club for the 10k people that live there and nobody wants that. Like we pointed out, our downtown roads are the way they are for a reason. Also, it’s a downtown, the economic, cultural and civic center of all activity. It’s going to have more going on to accommodate more people from more places than anywhere else. That’s just part of being downtown. And if the roads weren’t the way are to allow people access and mobility around Raleigh, it wouldn’t be able to become what it has.
End game though, safety for all users and modes is paramount and the end goal of every project. Also, I’m not saying anything in Raleigh needs to be widened of course, just pointing out that there is much more that goes into this and that things are the way they are for a reason.
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To be sure, I am not saying that the pendulum must swing from one side to the other, but the pendulum had been clearly on one side for many decades starting in the 1950s as inner city neighborhoods were systematically razed for the benefit of those who were participating in the flight to the suburbs. Suggesting that a context needs to be considered is not invalidating the need for the transportation voice at the table; it just means that others need to be at that table as well.
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You’re 100% right there, fair point. My main worry is just making sure we keep the goal of a safe, and liveable Raleigh for people inside downtown and not.
I think more so than most mid to large cities, we’re on the right track here.
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Would you say you want a “Livable Raleigh”?
Let’s shoot for a FANTASTIC Raleigh!
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I will say that in my time as a traffic engineer, you can certainly manipulate the numbers somewhat to help with one side of the argument if needed (depending on who the client is…)
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Haha or you can come up with a seemingly perfect solution and the client doesn’t “like it”. The joys of the private sector.
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The city’s Transportation and Transit Committee will meet this Thursday to talk about current and future projects + traffic congestion along Lake Wheeler Rd.
This conversation won’t just be about the part near Dix Park and Centennial Campus, but all the way to Penny Rd. near Garner. City staffers were asked to do this by City Council on May 4 presumably in response to questions about how the Dix Edge study and/or the 540 extension could throw a wrench into city plans.
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What are they thinking 540 would have to do with Lake Wheeler? If anything it will reduce since people will likely use 401 a bit less which in turn would make people use Lake Wheeler less in theory.
Unless they had plans to widen Lake Wheeler down to garner and now want to reconsider that.
IMO that should be the case, north of 40 I’d love to see lake Wheeler completely changed to an urban boulevard with mixed use paths on each side and median which I think the city is exploring.
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I think the city’s trying to gather evidence to make that exact case (that Lake Wheeler won’t need to support a ton of traffic in the future).
The city thought about making the road into a five-lane road between 40 and Tryon Rd. in the 2030 comprehensive plan (made in 2010), but backed off after community opposition when they made a corridor plan in 2012/3. I think the city wants to nudge towards eventually making Lake Wheeler into a more pedestrian- and bike-friendly corridor, but we won’t know for sure until the meeting.
NCDOT’s map of the completed 540 shows it crossing 540 once it’s complete, by the way, though it’ll only have an exit with 401.
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Yep, I don’t think there’s a Lake Wheeler exit programmed for 540 - 401 or Holly Springs out there…
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Now, IF Dix truly becomes a destination park for people coming from OUTSIDE Raleigh - then balancing that with pedi / bike access for Lake Wheeler is the real sticking point.
If feel like Alternate 2 for car travel from your shared 12/13 plan AND a multi-use path for pedi / bike traffic might be the best outcome…?
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