NR Swift Creek Steep Hill Creek Raccoon Creek corridor
Yeah, @Patrick, you lost me there, too. Trying to find a specific map within the Greenway Master plan that corresponds to this. Pointers, please…
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So I took a stab at putting the proposals we’ve brought up so far, compared it against land ownership records, watersheds/floodplains, and land elevations, and tried to estimate a construction price/flag out fatal flaws. From this perspective, though, the “yellow” route option doesn’t look like the obvious winner we thought it was…
Affected properties were counted based on whether parcels physically touched any of the proposed routes; properties were considered “needed to be removed” if a route option had to go through an existing building footprint.
Option 1 (blue): north of 40/440
Option 2 (green): south of 40/440
Option 3 (red): I-40 crossing/Carolina Pines
Option 4 (yellow): Sam's Club/Kane property
Option 5 (orange): Sam's Club/Carolina Pines
Option 6 (purple): Wilmington crossing
If anyone wants to do the math…
possible methodology?
All construction cost estimates blindly assume $100 million per mile for standard rail ($150M if elevational changes are needed; $200M for places where an overpass or underpass needs to be built).
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So, it comes a cost-benefit trade-off
Benefits:
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Improved operational fluidity for existing freight customers on the VF-Line by eliminating complex movements through NS Glenwood.
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Improved operational safety for all traffic through the Boylan Wye by removing the level, diamond crossing and eliminating the intersection of the NS Line with the H Line.
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Improvement of a municipal amenity by the abandonment of the NS-Line through Dix Park.
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Creation of a municipal amenity by repurposing the NS-Line bridge over I-40 offering further greenway connectivity into Southwest Raleigh.
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Improving commuter rail connections into Raleigh from Fuquay-Varina and possibly Fayetteville.
Costs:
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Design of the Cutoff.
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Land acquisition - Private homes and business
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Regulatory approval
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Construction - Level, Embankment, Viaduct, Tunnel.
No-Build Alternative:
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Maintenance of the status quo.
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Decision of the host railroad in abandoning the Raleigh connection
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Decision of the host railroad divesting operations along the VF Line to another short-Line operator.
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Awesome job on the alternative analysis you did there. When I was looking at this back in 2018. The reason I eliminated alternatives that diverged from the NCRR north of I-40 were that: firstly it required a new bridge over I-40, or worse for I-40 to be dug up and an underpass built, and secondly that they tended to spend a long time on a viaduct over the top of Walnut Creek, which I figured was maybe too much.
Regarding the first one, I-40 is on an elevated route over the surrounding land. Climbing up over east of South Saunders would require the embankment to start further north along the NCRR closer to downtown, and would also make a wye at the NCRR all but impossible. Crossing I-40 west of South Saunders may be more possible because it gives you more distance to climb first, and I-40 has to descend a little bit as it proceeds westward to go under the RR.
The main point being, the thing I had the most difficulty figuring out was how to cross I-40 without having to dig up the highway, but also keeping it from being too steep (and railroads prefer/require barely perceptible slopes of 1% or less).
But your read of the tea leaves could absolutely be correct! Property impacts are not always a big deal, but they can be, and AAs favor avoiding them if there is an alternative that has no fatal flaws.
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So, you’ve been thinking about this for awhile. I can only imagine that what has changed in two years is the momentum introduced by the Downtown South project combined with the increased desire for improved greenway amenities through Dix Park. Also, add a sprinkling of magic dust from The MAB Seven. (MAB+8-2=7)
Finally, a tip of the hat to @dtraleigh for creating this venue and allowing some collective citizen collaboration which a CAC would never have produced.
Patience has been a virtue for you!!
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I know that this will be an unpopular opinion based on all the excitement of getting rid of the train tracks in Dix Park, but I love the idea of trains going through the park. I would think that anybody who loves trains wouldn’t mind it either. Plus I thought that down on the south side of Dix Park around the Farmer’s Market would be a good place for a train station. It would service Dix Park, Farmer’s Market, Centennial Campus, this new part of Kane development, and the growing density of South Raleigh. I would rather maybe have a dual train track and greenway instead. Plus we could have a parking deck for train use and for the park instead of building all those parking lots that are proposed. It just seems to me that once you get rid of train tracks then you permanently remove the chance of commuter rail to that corridor.
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For me honestly getting the trains out of Dix is secondary. This is mostly about removing the insanity of having this crazy diamond crossing just west of the wye. That thing was obsolete the day it was built, and it has been causing problems in Raleigh for over a hundred years. It is time to modernize and move on.
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Another possible reason to relocate the RR above and beyond what’s been mentioned above (getting rid of the Boylan diamond, removing trains from Dix Park, and turning the right-of-way into a trail connecting southern OTB neighborhoods to Dix and to downtown) is that the right-of-way north of Western Blvd could become a great way for Western Blvd BRT buses to enter downtown. I would envision making this connection with a bridge over the NCRR connecting to the corner of St Mary’s / Hargett, which is already almost 30’ higher than the RR, meaning clearances would not be an issue.
With the old NSRY route through the wye removed, a bus bridge from Hargett/Boylan over the CSX line into the 2nd level of RUSBUS could complete the route, allowing buses to proceed directly from Western Boulevard to Union Station, while only crossing one street, Boylan Avenue, at grade - and signals could easily be configured to give buses priority at this intersection. This could easily cut 5, perhaps 10 minutes off the time it takes to get between downtown and NCSU (as well as other destinations further west on Western Boulevard).
The RR right of way is roughly 80 feet wide, which is more than wide enough to accommodate a two lane busway (which would be not more than 30’, including curbs and gutters) and a very generous pathway (20 or 25’ wide would feel luxurious.) The RR bridge over Western would of course be reserved for the pathway.
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That property has been considered for development many times in the past. I think WalMart was closest to pulling the trigger because they wanted to have their store in proximity of the Sam’s across the street. They built further up 401 in Garner.
There are numerous reasons why the properties haven’t been developed. I think it’s sheer dumb luck that so much stayed greenfield until someone could come along and plan out the whole thing.
Just to reiterate what @orulz said.
The level diamond junction in question was created when the original NSRy arrived in Raleigh from Norfolk at around 1913. They were the third railroad after the R&G (1840 - Raleigh & Gaston, then Seaboard Air Line) and the NCRR (1855 - Richmond & Danville, then Southern Railway). But, they weren’t content to just terminate in Raleigh punching through to Varina and on to Charlotte. The resulting complex movements of everything through the wye were then controlled from the old Boylan Tower (the last manned switch tower in North Carolina - closing in 1984, and later lost to fire by vagrants).
I’ve never been able to fathom how it happened, but this was during a period of rapid American railroad expansion. So, somehow it got through the Interstate Commerce Commission. But, the NSRy would otherwise have had to pay for trackage rights on the NCRR if they had followed the path of the Cutoff then that we’re proposing here now.
Back in 1913, NSRy passenger service from Norfolk would do like everybody else. Head out the wye and back in to the previous Raleigh Union Depot on Martin Street. But, the NSRy service from Varina and Fayetteville (and briefly Charlotte) could not have done that because of the angle of the diamonds and the constraints of Central Prison. So, traffic from the south would terminate up at the NSRy terminal (now-Google Fiber building) at Jones and Glenwood.
Even today, anything bound for RGH/RUS coming up the NS-Line would have to make the turnout to the H-Line’s NS Prison Siding, head east to CP Hunt to reverse and access the present platforms. There would never have been an approval for the ‘Impossible Junction.’ So, with regret @TedF, I can’t ever see a connection from the NS-Line ever making its way into the new station.
We have a brand new station, with remnants of an antiquated track layout which needs to be updated.
So, I definitely vote for getting rid of the diamonds.
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@dbearhugnc Thank you for the clarification on #5. I agree that actually constructing a greenway is a separate effort altogether. I got an up-close look of the Western Blvd. viaduct this past weekend (while getting pastries at Boulted Bread!) and it definitely needs work to be pedestrian and bike friendly.
From a greenway perspective, in my view the greatest value-add features are:
- ROW through Dix Park
- Greenway integration with proposed cycle-track (https://oaksandspokes.com/cycletrack/)
- Connections to Rocky Branch and Walnut Creek greenways
- Existing bridge over I-40 for further expansion.
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But, riding a bike over that would totally kick!!
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@dbearhugnc @orulz Hey guys, sorry for the slow response… it has been a few busy days w/ work and life! So, this is what iMAPS labels this section of the greenway corridor master plan. I’m meeting with @bradamj to learn more about the master planning process this week and introduce him to this idea.
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@OakCityDylan @Brian In my view, the next steps are who’s eyes at the City need to see this. We need advocates in professional positions who can take this through actual processes of building infrastructure. And, I suspect the State needs to get involved. @dbearhugnc You mentioned you have “Jones Street contacts”. NCDOT recently concluded the biennial State Transportation Improvement Plan (STIP) which is necessary for federal funding. I assume this is bad timing for us. Can you confirm–maybe the STIP is not applicable here? However, I also learned the next round of greenway master planning is just beginning–good for us!
We need credible champions who can get this idea off the blog and to the point where the gears of government move it forward. That’s both at the City and State levels (I assume).
I’m happy to reach out to those people–but I need to know who they are! 
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@OakCityDylan @dbearhugnc @Brian @keita @orulz @dtraleigh
yes. I was thinking the same thing. Before figuring out a date/time, I think we should discuss an agenda. Here’s my first thoughts:
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We need to get educated on what process will play out for this proposal (it’s not a handshake on a golf course!
) Maybe that’s a speaker? Maybe one of you know? Only than can we meet with people without wasting their time. -
Identify who, at which stakeholders, need to hear our proposal.
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I think Leo and I have some credibility with some City Council members to introduce the idea. I don’t know enough about it to speak intelligently about it yet though.
I am not married to the greenway either. I want to see the City own the Right-of-Way. Only then can the community have a meaningful discussion about what to do with it. When spending millions of public dollars this is critical.
In my opinion, I do think biking/greenway facility is a great way to utilize this corridor! Especially because of Dix Park.
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I don’t disagree. I would just prefer a dual rail / greenway solution.
When it comes to the railroad stuff, I agree with you. I’m really depending on @orulz and @dbearhugnc and @keita.
You know, I’m getting ahead of myself with the agenda. We need to meet and introduce ourselves.
Would you guys be willing to meetup this Saturday? From there, we can schedule a meeting cadence. Morning Times @ 10:00 AM?
I have no credibility with anybody and I am not so talented with the human/political/emotional side of persuasion (I tend to mostly bludgeon people in the head with facts and suggestions) … and my schedule is pretty busy, but I can try to attend a meeting somewhere, sometime, if that will help.