Rail Line to Fuquay-Varina

The major downside of light rail is that it’s so prodigiously expensive, and there are plenty of much better uses for spending of that magnitude. As @colbyjd3 said, the Lynx Blue Line in Charlotte is awesome, but it’s just one line. The city is looking into building a second one … but at an estimate cost of $4 billion.

Good transit planning is about figuring out what problem you want to solve and then looking for the right tool to solve that problem, rather than deciding on one particular tool ahead of time and then go looking for problems to solve with it. What Raleigh really needs is 1) a commuter rail and 2) better buses, not necessarily light rail.

Also, I realize that the transit-related topics tend to meander, because trains can take you to all kinds of fun places (get it?!), but the line from DTR to Fuquay specifically is never, ever going to be a candidate for light rail.

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IMO, light rail really only makes sense in either of the below two cases, and is only a slam dunk when both are met. Raleigh currently meets neither.

1. When demand for transit is high enough that bus service isn't enough, but underground/elevated rail, or regional rail on an existing railroad aren't the right fit

a. Existing buses are full, and running about every 5 minutes all day long
b. There is enough space for dedicated, surface right-of-way for much of the route (such as a median, an existing busway, the ability to take some lanes away from cars)
c. Some at-grade, on-street running is needed, meaning a fully elevated or fully underground option is not necessary, not technically feasible, or not affordable for some reason
d. A comparable, existing, parallel rail corridor either does not exist or cannot be upgraded for high frequency/high capacity regional rail

Examples:
-Seattle’s recent light rail construction/expansion
-Converting the LA Orange Line would fit this category

Considering Raleigh:
Right now, there is nowhere in Raleigh where bus ridership is high enough to justify light rail. With a big change in development patterns, I could see significant ridership growth on any of the BRT corridors. But for conversion to light rail, Capital, Wilmington, and Western aren’t great candidates, largely because they already have parallel rail corridors less than a mile away, that are being eyed for conversion to commuter rail. Before adding light rail in the same direction as a commuter rail line, you would need to weigh that against improving the commuter line - including electrification, adding more stops, and running trains more frequently. New Bern might be promising, however, since the the existing freight rail corridor is not being eyed for commuter trains, and the route from downtown to WakeMed and on towards Knightdale is circuitous and runs along sparsely populated waterways and swamps.

There are other possibilities where no rail line exists, like Glenwood Avenue or Six Forks - but we should look toward improving bus service first, including bumping bus frequency, adding quality busways, and building enough density to support ridership, before going to the expense of building light rail.

And on any of these corridors, if we do get there in terms of ridership, we’ll have to ask the question of whether light rail, which runs mostly or entirely at-grade, would in fact be the best fit, or whether we should pursue grade separated (elevated/underground) transit instead.

2. There is an existing, abandoned or underused rail corridor that can easily be taken over for light rail, and provides significant benefits over just running more buses

a. Abandoned or underutilized
b. For sale or publicly owned
c. Able to be taken over wholly by light rail (with the possible exception of occasional time-segregated overnight freight trains)
d. Well located, next to destinations, existing density, and/or areas that would be good candidates for TOD
e. Long enough to be worth using - at least a few miles
f. Some at-grade, on street operation is needed to complete the line (If the rail corridor is enough by itself, then just upgrade it to a regional rail line, rather than converting it for light rail.)

Examples:
-Charlotte Blue Line. 19 miles long, uses 8 miles of essentially abandoned rail corridor, from Archdale in South Charlotte, to Matheson in NoDa, through the heart of uptown (just two blocks from Tryon!)
-Maryland Purple Line. 16 miles long, uses 3.5 miles of abandoned rail corridor between Bethesda and Silver Spring

Considering Raleigh:
We do have some rail corridors heading north and south from downtown that are underutilized - and by building some new connections, one of them in each direction could be made redundant. As I have mentioned before in this thread, I think the southern corridor would be more beneficial as a rail-trail than as light rail. The northern corridor is just 2 miles long (from near Capital & Wake Forest, to near West & North in Glenwood South,) stopping well short of the core of downtown. While this could be useful for connecting to a light rail line along Six Forks, IMO it’s not enough on its own to justify choosing light rail over another mode (unlike the 8 mile abandoned corridor in Charlotte.)

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Did you ever get this team together on this idea? I’m just catching up on the discussion but I think you had an idea which could effect the Western Blvd BRT design as well as have benefits for Greenways and Dix Park connections (if I followed the previous thoughts properly). If so, the project lead for the Western Blvd BRT route would be a logical place to begin. I have met her and she is very open minded. Dhanya Sandeep, Senior Urban Designer (tel:919-996-2659)
[Dhanya.Sandeep@raleighnc.gov]

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I sort of figure that is on pause for Coronavirus?

Anyway, since I am never one to let reality get in the way of a good vision… I would like to expand the scope to include reworking the redundant rail lines north of downtown as well. This accommodates rail trails, high speed rail, commuter rail, adding to the street grid, and lastly, huge amounts of redevelopment of railyards that would be (partially or fully) abandoned.

More on that later.

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I’m still down to discuss ideas and things; I think we just never really agreed on a time and place to meet up and discuss these things in person.

(I’m still down to talk about this, though, whenever time allows!)

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Yeah, I’m still up for meeting & discussing this as well. I love this idea and don’t want to give up on it.

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Let’s do a WebEx or Zoom or something. Send me a private message if you’re interested and we will work out a time/ method

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OK, I’ll go ahead and let this loose into the wild. Looking at our idea of re-engineering the legacy rail corridors in/out of Raleigh with multiple, non-automobile, uses, I dub thee…

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Can somebody share the powerpoint presentation for the rail consolidation? I can’t find it anywhere. @orulz that was your creation correct?

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Thank you! I hope you don’t mind I shared this presentation with the Raleigh YIMBY listserv

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TBJ has an article today on the possibility of Raleigh-Fayetteville commuter rail. Apparently in January Fayetteville City Council expressed support for the second phase of a study into a possible system.

Some highlights from the article:

One of the biggest differences between the two routes is travel time. The western corridor contains more turns, meaning the train could only reach speeds of around 25 miles per hour on most parts of the track. The eastern corridor, however, contains more straight lines. The train can reach speeds of up to 70 and 79 miles per hour for large portions of the journey, the study said. Graham said the time difference between the two options is about 45 minutes to 90 minutes for the eastern corridor, and between 90 minutes to 2 hours for the western corridor.

The capital costs of getting each line ready for passenger service differ, too. Projected costs for the western corridor would be around $131 million, compared with between $169 million to $175 million for the eastern corridor, the study said.

The study also said projected ridership would be 13 percent higher on the eastern corridor.

Phase 2 of the study will develop more fine-tuned cost estimates for each corridor. Graham said Phase 2 will eventually pick a preferred route for the rail service.

Graham said it’s still early in the process, and it’s not known if a new organization would operate the line or if it’d be the North Carolina Department of Transportation’s rail division.

“We’d probably end up maybe implementing some type of special transit tax, maybe a penny sales tax in order to pay for the initial local match cost for implementing the service from scratch,” Graham said. “Maybe we’d have to build a new station in both locations, or a midpoint station in Selma.”

https://www.bizjournals.com/triangle/news/2022/02/07/raleigh-fayetteville-rail-line-considered.html

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It’s surprising to me how optimistic (or at least, not immediately defeatist) the Fayetteville MPO’s director sounds about putting a penny sales tax on a ballot. Then again, they did go out of their way to build a new downtown transit center near their Amtrak station and invest more in their transit system despite not increasing property taxes last year.

I really hope this second phase of the study can come up with clever solutions, though. Judging by their proposed goals, it sounds like planners aren’t sure if the freight rail companies, NCDOT, and other rail projects (SEHSR and GoTriangle’s commuter rail, for starters) would become supporters or obstacles. Depending on that and how their engineering scope/cost estimates go (read: if trains can run quickly, frequently, and cheaply enough), we could go anywhere from a surprise endorsement of the Artery to this project being dead in the water…

Oh by the way, since no one posted it on this thread, here’s the full report for Phase 1 of that study:

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f this is the case then the Durham-Raleigh Faquay Vaein Commuter rail Line should be accelerated. Obviously Fayetteville commuter plan isn’t expensive if its $100 million or a little to build it,

I’d be very surprised if they opted for the western corridor. I like the routing better, especially considering that the eastern corridor overlaps with the Clayton-Durham line (which will probably be extended to Selma at some point) and existing Amtrak A-Line service, but 25mph isn’t going to cut it, and upgrading to anything better than that is going to be expensive. It’d be huge for Lillington and Fuquay-Varina, though.

Here’s my (uninformed) two cents, since they absolutely should make this corridor happen one way or the other: pursue the eastern corridor. Split the cost with GoTriangle for double-tracking the H-Line; that needs to be done anyway, might as well get FAMPO to chip in. Build it out, establish a ridership base, and start working on NS/VF line upgrades. If we do a good enough job with TOD and what would, by then, be three commuter lines into Raleigh (GoTriangle, S-Line, Ral-Fay), public perception will have shifted in favor of transit for this region (and I’ll be, like, fifty lol). That shift gives you permission to just start overhauling every single line in the Triangle area, and suddenly Fuquay and Lillington have frequent all-day rail service. I cite Denver’s rapid (by US standards) regional rail expansion as an example.

That’s my pipe dream. I might be dead by the time it’s fully realized, but maybe future generations can enjoy it.

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If it helps at all, some of the rail improvements that they’re proposing (and should’ve factored into cost estimates) for the eastern option involves making them fully double-track. The report has this map of current and proposed track features; notice how only the eastern approach will end up being fully double-track:

The report included a comparison of benefits and concerns for both eastern and western fronts concerning how to operate trains and what features stations must have. I felt like the eastern option had fewer pain points, too, but it also depends on majorly redoing a rail track crossing in downtown Selma that costs more than $10M.

The paper suggested two options: a cheaper one where a short line of tracks are built where trains could stop and switch directions (this involves train operators moving back and forth within the train, so it’ll take longer and look kind of silly), and a more expensive option that looks like something
@orulz thought of a while back:

Also, regardless of whether we pick the eastern or western routes, we’d still have to make major station improvements in Fayetteville as well as storage yards outside of Raleigh. Still, train maneuvers in Fayetteville would also be simpler with the eastern option.

The TBJ journalist didn’t do the math right, though, since it seems like they only looked at one of several things they’d need to build. Here are the numbers I read and summed; the cheaper item is bolded:

Needed infrastructure Western Eastern
Fayetteville station upgrades $10.1M $10.1M
Total station upgrades specific to each route $29.7M $19.4M
Total track upgrades specific to each route $100.9M $174.8M
Rolling stock (intercity rail) $27.5M $27.5M
TOTAL capital cost (super rough estimate) $168.2M $231.8M

Is the worse service on the western line worth it because it’s cheaper to build? Sadly, that’s hard to say with the data we have now. I don’t trust this study’s ridership forecast because their prediction model might not reflect the services or passengers we’ll truly see. It’s based on Amtrak’s past services where trains run 4 times a day.

I hope this project happens, too, even if it means I’m old and senile by the time it’s running. But I’d like it to be done based on sound math and economics, and we’ll need to see Phase 2 of this study before we can say one or the other :confused:

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I say the east route because the Raleigh to Fuquay-Varina corridor could be part of a rapid transit rail system, like a metro due to future density in this region.

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That’s an interesting idea, assuming you meant west route. Maybe they could do something like the Sprinter, a peculiar little line that runs from Oceanside to Escondido. It operates kind of like light rail, but shares the ROW with freight and runs with small DMUs. Service runs every thirty minutes, so it’s not quite light rail, not quite commuter rail. San Bernardino’s Arrow, which is expected to open before summer, will run a similar operation.

Lots of opportunities for TOD on that route too (for now). The biggest problem, of course, would be that Norfolk Southern owns the line, and they… do not play nice. Ever.

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For some reason I could see higher ups going with the West route as it touches a Wake Tech campus and could also help out Campbell University too by going through Lillington. Lillington and Buies Creek are not far at all and could see some BRT built into the Lillington station.

EDIT: Just realized that’s the same Wake Tech campus off 401 where the 540 expansion is supposed to go through. Don’t know if that would add an additional layer of complications or opportunities? Having a train station near the big 540 interchange and a main thoroughfare (Highway 401)…

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Agreed, Wake Tech is the easiest ridership win of both routes, especially if you can run all-day service. Didn’t even consider Campbell, but imagine how great it would be for students to just take a shuttle to Lillington and hop on a train to Raleigh. Makes that campus feel a lot less isolated.

Also, here’s something that seems to blow my primary concern out of the water:

You’re only looking at about a four-minute difference between the two routes, and only fifteen to twenty minutes more than driving (assuming there’s no traffic). That definitely makes west a more viable option.

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