Raising Kids in Raleigh

[mario]

Why We Won't Raise Our Kids in Suburbia

I know I’m very original using NJB to explain urbanism, but this conversation is very focused on the challenges of raising kids in downtown rather than just a walkable place which I don’t think captures the full picture. Obviously, having the space of a suburban single family home comes with a lot of benefits compared to a cramped apartment despite its urban amenities, but there are endless benefits for children that come with being in a walkable, human scale environment as opposed to an isolated patch of land accessible only by car.

There seems to be a very narrow view in here where a family either lives in a highrise or a SFH, but you can have TONS of inbetween with the same benefits of both that still don’t require a car dependent landscape (hellscape imo). Downtown is typically the place in a city oriented around business and financial concentration, whereas the footprint of residential living and urban fabric usually expands far beyond that before reaching the suburbs. If I were to ever become a parent, I would definitely consider the implications of my child being confined to my house for their first 16 years+ of life and what the freedom/independence of walkability might teach them.

[sthomper]

@mario

as opposed to an isolated patch of land accessible only by car.

if these exist in raleigh i can see and would support improvements being made to them. some of those neighborhoods out near tw alexander may not have any way for young people to safely venture beyond a little nook of houses. this may be a case where the house gets there before the later improvements. the greenway didn’t exist near milburnie prior to the houses in Longview and nearby.

[Deb]

I live on the eastern edge of Boylan Heights. Small house, small yard, 50 lb dog. We’ve lived here 11 years and were in a small apartment in Glenwood South for 5 years before this. Have no desire to live anywhere else in the area but downtown.

I grew up in a spacious home on a half acre in the suburbs of Miami. I lost the desire to live that life while in college and had the freedom of walking or biking everywhere I wanted to go.

The way people talk about the need for so much stuff and space, it’s a wonder generations of people managed to raise families in New York City for so long, or even in the small houses near downtown that have housed families for decades. My mom grew up in a 2/1 house that was maybe 1000 sq ft. Family of four with a dog. In Miami without air conditioning! How did they do it?

[sthomper]

because it occurred from where they came from doesn’t necessarily mean they desired it as a permanent condition. many peeps from the northeast have ‘fled’ to the south for more ‘yard’ . this i know.

[grant]

I grew up in a Cary suburb, which I think technically has a better ‘walkability score’ than our house now, but I think only because you could technically walk to a Food Lion in a few minutes… if you crossed Cary Parkway and another 4-lane road.

I never did that, and never really felt like there was any world around my house beyond the suburbs. There was a lake deep in one of the adjacent neighborhoods I eventually discovered, but something about the environment just made me feel like there was nothing meaningful around me to explore.

I couldn’t say whether this was a factor in my disposition to just stay inside and play games, read, build Lego, etc. Perfectly believable that it was mostly just my personality and other factors at play.

But I’m interested to see how our son, who should be here any day now, will experience living closer to downtown. I’m planning on getting an electric cargo bike so I can ferry him around when he’s old enough. Our neighborhood park seems fairly nice, and Chavis looks like something I would have dreamed about as a kid. Marbles, too, I always wanted to go there when I was younger, but my parents couldn’t justify it (either from time, parking, or expense). Now we could walk there.

I’m definitely nervous about the space, and some aspects of safety (although I am consciously trying not to invent danger where there’s no evidence of it). There’s no way to predict how I’ll actually feel as a parent, or what my kid will be like.

But still, all that in mind, I’m more excited about our situation than I would be about the kind of place I grew up in.

And I have to wonder how much of the stress and frustration I will probably experience from having a slightly smaller house, etc, will be offset by how little time I will have to spend driving my kid around to get to everything. I could be very naive about that though!

[evan.j.bost]

Best of luck and love to you as you embark on parenthood!

Just wanted to add my perspective. When I was 10 my family moved from a dirt road country setting outside of Wendell to the Preston area of Cary. I went to West Cary Middle School and Green Hope High School. In Wendell I was always outside, getting chased by farmers out of their wheat fields, riding dirt bikes and go karts on endless trails, jumping in ponds, lighting stuff on fire, having dirt clod wars, building forts in the woods, etc. Being a young kid in the country was amazing.

When we moved to a cul-de-sac in Cary, I had to teach the suburban kids how to play outside. We built a paintball course along a creek buffer In the middle of a very suburban neighborhood. I got yelled at for hacking at neighbors trees with machetes, or walking around the neighborhood with a BB gun. We caught tadpoles and crayfish with our hands in the creek. But after a few years, I became a suburban kid like my peers.

My biggest takeaway from that suburban life as a kid is that it creates a tremendous amount of boredom that is often filled with mischief, drugs, alcohol, or if you’re lucky and an attentive parent, scholastics, sports, video games, and other positive activities. But the stats of my millennial peers at Green Hope spoke for themselves. Multiple suicides, including two of my good friends’ siblings, multiple drug overdoses that continue to this day, multiple deaths by car accident, multiple pedestrians struck by vehicles directly in front of the school, and multiple outcomes of prison/rehab.

When I got to college I was shocked at how many people had never been to massive keg parties with 5+ kegs. The folks that were familiar with this party style were typically from similar wealthier suburban communities, like South Charlotte.

I say all this to point out the disparity between the visual cues of a prim and proper manicured suburban community centered around golf course country clubs, grocery store anchored strip malls, and beautifully landscaped median divided boulevards with no crosswalks, and the dark underbelly of the bored youth that trampled these grounds at night. In my experience, there was nothing to do in the suburbs so the kids created their own reality.

DTR may not be quite at the point of offering a true urban childhood experience, but it’s certainly more interesting and offers a broader perspective of real life than West Cary did for me and many peers.

[Boltman]

Obviously, there is no utopia. Most outcomes are the result of parenting, household situation, and the overall character of the person rather than what is immediately outside. Possibly one day, but not sure downtown Raleigh offers any more perspective of real life than West Cary.

[evan.j.bost]

That’s a great video. Jason does a great job highlighting the issues.

[dtraleigh]

We’ve heard plenty from folks with younger children. What about anyone with teenagers? What do they do these days?

I have this vision of giving my future teenage daughter some money and saying, “Just go downtown today with your friends.” and then she entertains herself. I feel that’s not happening now but maybe in 10 years?

[John]

I grew up in two different suburban places. Until I was 11, I was in Los Gatos, CA near the foothills at the bottom of the Santa Clara Valley (AKA Silicon Valley). From there forward, I was in a similar country club environment to you but in north Raleigh (North Ridge). In California, though it was a much more densely populated area than suburban Raleigh, we were up against these hills where my friend Wayne and I used to “hunt” lizards and snakes that we’d bring home to our makeshift aquariums of reptiles. However, the majority of my childhood was spent on my bike riding around the neighborhood of cookie cutter houses, or playing games in the small cul de sac that was next to the house (we were on the corner facing the street). Since we are packed tightly into very dense suburbia, all of my friends were relatively close and all 3 levels of public school were walkable.
When we moved to Raleigh, my parents bought a house on what was literally the furthest north cul de sac in the city limits at that time. Beyond us was woods with creeks and farmland that would soon be developed as I entered high school. Things were way more spread out and so were my friends. Getting to them was more difficult and dangerous as the streets were hilly and winding. My friends didn’t feel as accessible to me in Raleigh without being driven in a car. Middle and high school were only accessible by bus or car.
The most trouble that I got into living in this la la land of the nouveau riche was the night that a group of friends and I went out on the golf course at night. We were caught by security when one of the girls in the group picked up a pin flag and started to demonstrate her flag routine for Millbrook High School’s halftime show. We all got cited and had to appear in court. One of the kid’s dad hired an attorney and nothing came of our delinquency since we didn’t do any damage. The case was dismissed before we actually had to appear before the judge. I’ve never stepped foot on that course ever again.

[Brian]

Our experience is probably not the norm, but I may be one of the few on here who is currently parenting a teenager. We have one son who is 17 and a senior at Broughton. We’re about 2 miles south of downtown.

The social life and teenage experience of all kids my son’s age have been dramatically impacted by COVID. My son’s maybe more than others. He was already a bit socially awkward and didn’t know a lot of kids going to Broughton from his middle school (Centennial Campus middle). Trying to meet new kids and form friendships while doing virtual school for part or all of his Freshman - Junior years was impossible. He was probably already going to be one of those kids who would spend all day in front of the computer if we let him (we didn’t) but COVID and virtual school made that worse.

He’s always loved doing stuff downtown (IBMA in particular) and one night when we were at Moore Square I remember him saying, “God, I love downtown Raleigh at night!” He’s also enjoyed cities we’ve visited - Atlanta and Nashville.

We encourage him to do stuff downtown with his friends, but he hasn’t really taken that up. I think that’s because his core group of friends is through scouts, which he did in Apex. He did scouts in Apex because his base schools were Penny Road ES, Apex Middle, and Apex HS. All of his scouting friends live in Cary or Apex. He started scouts in 2nd grade and 10 years later he’s an Eagle scout and we have worn a path between our house and Apex. Let that be a warning to parents of young kids: don’t commit to driving your kids to activities all over the place unless you’re willing to keep doing it for the next 10 years.

Starting in middle school we were able to get him assigned to schools closer to home through the magnet programs. It’ll be interesting to see how gentrification/improvements in our area impact school districting over time.

[Jake]

I’m just chiming in to say it’s odd how much some of our oldest members in here seem to know so much of what kids-these-days prefer lmao

[xdavidj]

Some of it is an issue of propaganda. They were told what kids wanted around the idea of the ‘American Dream’. Single-family house, white picket fence, big yard, etc. Those of us in our early 20s - early 40s dealt with the ramifications of that and are now able to articulate our experience growing up with those in place.

My experience: it was boring. It wasn’t my parents fault. They did the best that they could with the information they were given. But, a lot of people that fed into that are blind to it because they were able to drive to interests without understanding that their kids couldn’t do that without asking for their permission and their time to chauffer us to and from these places.

[Jake]

I would add my own experience to that - I was raised on largely country-esque streets (aka, no sidewalks, not exactly close to any cultural centers, just outside of the mass-planned suburbs) - and I uhhhhh hated it hahaha. As a kid I always fantasized about living in the city, or hell even on a cul-de-sac in a major planned neighborhood. I’d have killed to have even a damn sidewalk in front of either of the houses I spent most of my childhood/teen years in.

[pBeez]

My daughter’s experience supports your own. She’s grown up in a big house in a small town, and all she dreams of doing is escaping to the big city. She told one of my colleagues how for fun, she and her friends would go get food, and then park in a wal-mart lot to eat, talk and read their phones. She’s well traveled at 22, Birmingham, Minneapolis, Oslo for colleges, etc. We’ve got our fingers crossed on her giving up on NYC and trying ATL or Raleigh after college.

[mario]

One of my favorites of his for sure

[John]

I’m not sure that members here are presuming to know what kids-these-days prefer. I just read people sharing their own experiences.

[Jake]

I was clowning Boltman a bit as he keeps saying "kids want this ____ " or “kids prefer that____” hahaha - I was just jokin’

[sthomper]

as a youngster i did ride the bus from longview to the downtown museum of natural history for summer classes (the old one) in the summer, get comics at a small magazine shop at the foot of the court house (long gone by now) and do lunch with my dad at a hardees or a belks deli that existed the time. i was 8 years old at the time and no one had any fear. bus drivers knew me by name. you had the occasional drunk downtown but whatever. this was likely at 180k total population for raleigh and when there was a pedestrian mall on fsm. often on weekends me and my dad would bike from longview area to downtown to relax, feed some pigeons and get some doughnuts. it was pleasant and comfortable. with the bike lanes that exist now a casual bike ride from a near by sfh-area can still do the same experience while enjoying the new architecture.

[sthomper]

as a kid in brentwood (mid 80s), we could and did bike to unfinished Atlantic avenue, take a woody path to six forks, hit whittaker mill and bike downtown…for doughnuts. again, with the bike lanes now people and youth have direct options, if not perfect, to explore without cars.