Have you been to Austin? The suburban-ness is EXTREMELY not “gone,” it is only growing.
12 Likes
Yeah, it is crucial to judge the livability of a city by the whole of its limits, not just its downtown area. For example, here’s The Domain in North Austin. They’ve been focusing so hard on this area that they put their brand new soccer stadium here, which can be seen near the center of the picture. While it’s worth noting that Austin’s only existing rail line runs through here (the Red Line), it’s hard to ignore how much parking, pavement, and sprawl is visible in this shot.
And again, this is within Austin city limits, not a neighboring suburb. They’re certainly doing some things right (Project Connect is a really exciting effort), but let’s not blindly pedestal a city that’s doing the same sprawly nonsense that most other American cities are doing. Just because you had fun visiting a city’s downtown or tourist district doesn’t mean that the city is doing everything right.
12 Likes
Unless we have a model that’s more like Virginia’s: independent cities and counties, it’s unreasonable to expect that Raleigh will ever only focus on Raleigh. The way our government is structured, there are services that are run at the county level like schools, while there are other services like trash collection and city policing that are provided at the city level.
That said, Raleigh should (and does) focus on how to grow its tax base within the context of its limits and ETJ. In the long run, its financial health is dependent on finding the revenue streams to maintain its infrastructure through development and revenue growth.
6 Likes
is Raleigh’s suburban-ness essentially at its limits?
Uhm that’s a good question. I think it’s getting a little more urban. But areas like West Raleigh and North Raleigh needs to be more urban. For example areas like Wakefield (where I went to school) could use it. Areas like Falls of Neuse and New Falls of Neuse, areas like Spring Forest and Lake Boone and Crabtree could be a lot more urban. The robust Crabtree Valley Mall can’t always be a beneficary or serve it purpose of being an urban center forever unless and top-level store like GUCCI or Louis Vuitton come into the area even Micheal Kors and Kate Spade would be good here. But yes Raleigh urbanest is definitely at it limits with urbaness.
Take a closer look, and you’ll find plenty of small businesses; northwest Cary and Morrisville have substantially greater immigrant populations than anywhere ITB, and have the small specialty businesses to match. Population densities along the Davis Drive corridor (at nearly 4,000 per sq mi) are higher than in much of north Raleigh and even plenty of areas ITB - about 70% denser than the three tracts comprising the old Glenwood CAC, for instance. The area west of 540 has a much better interconnected bike trail network than anything in north Raleigh.
Sure, it could be much better, but 2010s suburbs are a substantial improvement over the 1960s-1980s suburbs that fill most of Raleigh’s land area. (This is hardly unique to Cary; Raleigh did the same, with Brier Creek and Wakefield being much denser than earlier closer-in subdivisions. In NoVa, WMATA’s Silver Line infamously has a nine-mile gap between the high-rise Reston and Tysons stations, since the exclusionary 1970s subdivisions in between are assumed to never densify. And the newest stuff even further out is even denser!)
6 Likes
That is a good point - I tend to forget about it while enjoying being in many of their delivery radii.
It’s what LA and Houston are famous for - initially nondescript looking strip malls full of amazing international restaurants. The area would be more fun to look at if it was more walkable/attractive/etc, but it definitely has great spots to eat.
1 Like
I’m specifically talking about the rapid build-out of land west of 540, which is where the county line is anyways. There may be a great bike trail network, but there’s no where to bike to. I don’t know if anyone has driven out there recently, but there are dozens of new subdivisions being bulldozed right now, and to my knowledge they are all single use medium density residential.
The only store that populates on Google maps in this screenshot that’s not in a grocery anchored strip is a craft beer bottle shop.
3703 State Rd 1605
2 Likes
I have friends who live in Cary Park, and I agree that the area is not my cup of tea (to say the least). Then again, it’s not perceived the same way by many, many, many people who want that sort of life. It baffles me to no end.
I agree entirely with your detest for this area, but for me it’s mostly the awkwardness to get there without taking a tolled 540. You are right though, it’s just a vast area of residential with very, very little retail. Even gas stations out there are spotty.
This is happening though all over the suburbs now. I’m out in Fuquay and there are at least 4 massive residential developments underway, all SFH. Of course, out this way, and west of Cary, land is much cheaper. No one is building upwards when you have acres and acres of land available. That’s just not how development works usually. It makes more sense to go wide before tall, as long as you have land to expand into and the land cost is cheaper than going vertical.
Edit to change from wall of text.
A question for the group, something I come back to now and then, is if this setup is truly reflective of how people want to live or what housing just looks like.
I feel it’s a combination of both. I feel a certain part of our suburban population would be perfectly fine with a denser housing situation if it meant cheaper costs or more walkability. Housing is kind of risky to build so providing something that sells easily is the safer bet from a developer. Plus, we all need housing so the option to “I’ll just live on the streets until a house that checks all the boxes shows up” isn’t really an option for those in the home-buying market.
I’m fine with the suburban housing being there, I just want to see the other types being built as well.
8 Likes
I think that there’s still a substantial number of people who are enamored with things that only come with an abundant amount of personal space. People want separate home offices, home gyms, theater rooms, gourmet kitchens, ample closet space, 2 or 3 car garages, etc. Even though Americans have largely eschewed things like formal living rooms and dining rooms, it doesn’t necessarily mean that the houses get smaller. That space just goes to something else now.
4 Likes
I agree that a large portion of the folks buying tract built homes in cookie cutter, mass graded cul de sac neighborhoods would be fine with denser, more mixed use and walkable housing if it is still in the same crime / schooling / overall location / property value zone. Many buyers’ primary drivers are safety, school districts, driving proximity to landmarks, and value. What they don’t consider, because it’s not part of the decision making matrix yet, is avg. time required in a vehicle to live in that location.
This is not really a Raleigh issue, but it affects the region. To return to my example, IMO it would be much smarter of a development pattern to require a % density of uses for newly annexed land where an influx of new residents are being proposed. For instance, if 200 acres is up for annexation and subdivision for a total of 500 new residences where there currently are 10 residences, as a condition of annexation, some percentage of that land must be zoned for commercial use based on the new density of residents. Some developers would choose to develop the commercial with the housing, and others would choose to offer that parcel up for sale for a commercial developer to take, but the mixed use fabric would be baked-in to the plat as part of the rezoning/annexation. Each of these mega tract built neighborhoods would at least have some services within walking distance, and the over-engineered bike paths that each developer have to install as part of the new streetscape would actually connect nodes of businesses and residences.
It just seems insane to me… the expediency and thoughtlessness that is spitting this housing out. And of course the expanding town just sees $$$$ expanding tax base, impact fees, utility tap fees, money money money… but it’s short term gains in exchange for long term prosperity and resilience…
3 Likes
It’s a supply vs demand problem, so it’s difficult to determine exactly what people want when zoning affects the market. Developers build what will make them the most money. When everything is zoned for single-family housing, they build the largest possible house that will be bought. Before the pandemic, outliers like California and NYC excluded, rising home prices were almost entirely caused by inflation and increased square footage.
I think what’s important though is to look at what the most expensive housing in the city is. Places like Mordecai, Oakwood, Boylan Heights, where many of the houses are smaller but they’re in a much more walkable and vibrant area. Those places aren’t as dense as they should be, but they’re way more dense than most of the city.
When you have to drive 20 minutes to get out of your residential-only neighborhood, your home amenities start to become a lot more important. But I don’t think it’s the number one issue for many home-buyers.
2 Likes
Those strip malls in Cary, Morrisville, and Apex have some of the best Indian, Chinese, and Korean restaurants in the whole area. There are only a few in Raleigh: Chuan is good for decent Chinese if you don’t feel like driving to Cary. Seoul Gardens for Korean, and the 3-4 good Vietnamese restaurants off Capital. All in strip malls as well. Otherwise it’s a trip to Cary / Morrisville
3 Likes
I’m going to Szechuan Mansion this weekend, I definitely respect the Cary food scene.
1 Like
That place is the best hot pot out of the 3 in the area. Get there early in case there is a wait. And get the traditional Mala soup base. That base is prob one of the better ones I’ve had, including in China.
1 Like
I think people moving from smaller, older homes in very expensive metro areas like the idea of a bigger, nicer home which is less expensive than the house they’re leaving behind. But his only holds as long as it’s actually cheaper. That may not hold for much longer. I could see parts of these areas, like around downtown Apex, becoming much more dense, walkable etc in the coming decade or so.
1 Like
Raleigh’s been getting generally denser for the last few decades. Some of this is due to newer suburban development being more dense than legacy suburban development, but it’s also due to actual urban densification in key nodes throughout the city. There’s still so much opportunity to densify on dying strip center properties, aging 2 story apartment complex parcels, and areas around key nodes.
3 Likes
ive been out of raleigh for some years now but when i last lived in north ridge villas in the early 2000s i actually loved the walking and bicycling situation that i had there. i guess that area may not be considered suburban anymore but i could bike/walk to dozens of restaraunts and to several grocers. portion of the sidewalk on falls of ‘the’ nesue was extra wide and if i recall from many many years back kind of designed for bikes and pesestrians. Millbrook exchange had tennis only a mile from me and at the time i had a cat connector bus that i could go to north hills with a short bike ride to the stop. but if i look at say the heddingham area on google maps it doesnt look quite as non-car friendly.