And I would add that ‘fast casual’ in NH could also include Happy + Hale, Aladdins, Bulbox, Mason’s lobster rolls, Bar Taco…but they’ve also lost b.good, Moe’s, Viva Chicken and Springrolls - unless and until there are a lot of people out in NH or DTR on a regular basis (working back in the offices), I think there will continue to be turnover.
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Just as a note, B. Good just up and left NH too recently.
I think one big difference between the two locations is that NH will fill those spots very fast, they do not sit empty very long. They have a team that is always working that aspect. The plan for the redo has some very interesting retail and entertainment coming in. The 3 story restoration hardware with the roof top bar alone will entertain them for days. Some of these places mentioned are what will move people into downtown. All I have seen downtown other than the awesome museums is the black Hebrews and some silly vehicles in a parking lot people ride for 10 minutes. Remember the little ice skating rink on fayetteville st, that thing was so full and so popular. It was a big draw. They have to have some interactive stuff like that. Some rotational entertainment for younger folks, people with children. Hire some companies that do this for a profit. Shit some bounce houses and trampoline in the parks would make a killing. I am no pert but DTR is going to get buried by these entertainment districts and more stuff will close downtown.
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I strongly disagree with the notion that Downtown and North Hills don’t compete. Even in this thread, @softfurrykitty noted how out of town visitors prefer NH over DT and so they started staying in a hotel at NH when they had previously stayed downtown.
I like DTR and want it to improve but objectively it is smaller and less amenitized than downtowns of peer cities. IMO a large part of the reason why is because we have multiple suburban mega-developments such as NH that capture spending and residents.
Look at Nashville. In the middle of downtown they have two huge developments under construction. Nashville Yards Nashville Yards - Gresham Smith : Gresham Smith and Fifth & Broad https://www.fifthandb.com/
Obviously we have activity downtown. Smoky Hollow, SeaboardStation, and others are great, but our huge developments (NH, Midtown Exchange, Downtown South, Fenton, Hub RTP) are all outside our urban core and they suck people and $$ away. Maybe in time Downtown South can feel somewhat connected with downtown. Maybe in the future Central Prison can be replaced with a massive mixed use project, but in the meantime, DTR lacks critical mass and the biggest developments continue to be built in disconnected locations.
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Downtown has a lot of great stuff - certainly the sum of restaurants and nightlife exceeds that of NH, but it’s spread out over about 750 acres DT, instead of the roughly 100 occupied by NH. If you could take all of downtown’s activity and stuff it into Glenwood South for example (about 100 acres) then it would probably be pretty easy to declare DT the winner, and those software training attendees probably would have been satisfied - but that’s just not the reality on the ground.
The museums and live entertainment of downtown are unmatched at NH, but on the other hand NH also has the movie theater, bowling alley, and Target, which downtown doesn’t quite have an answer for in kind. As for groceries, both do pretty well - but while Weaver Street is a reasonable walk from Fayetteville, Publix kind of isn’t - unless walking two and a half miles round trip is your thing. (It’s definitely my thing! But it’s not for everybody.)
At this point I’ve come to terms with the idea that while North Hills and downtown do compete to some degree, and adding Downtown South in to the mix will increase that competition further, Raleigh on the whole probably does benefit from having more than one high density district like this.
Rephrasing: the sum of Downtown, plus North Hills, plus (eventually) Downtown South, is probably greater than what we would have if the North Hills redevelopment had been turned down back in 2003, and Downtown South last year, and we instead adopted a policy of trying to focus all of our energy on downtown.
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uhhh, what do you mean by this? 
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My wife and I used to go there regularly pre-covid and I think it’s good. Wide variety. Sushi is fine. Don’t recall it being of particularly low quality or small quantity. Worth a try.
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I think that you have really hit on something hear…
NH vs. DTR is an 
to 
comparison IMO
Uhh, what do you mean by what do I mean?
Sorry, I have to say that you have me stumped as well…
Brilliance is often hard to keep up with lol. Beats me.
Maybe there isn’t. Or maybe we’re not trying our best and firing at all pistons? For instance:
Does DTR even have a business-recruiting arm? It sounds like we just expect businesses to show up downtown when the “invisible hand” is very visible and active for our competitors.
I really think there’s something to be said about DTR’s impression as “dead”. I get that it’s false and there’s tons of cool local restaurants and venues if you’re willing to walk to the other side of the district (and especially all the way from the Convention Center to Glenwood). That doesn’t seem like a stretch to us locals, but it’s a major physical and cognitive commitment for people who have never been here before. Like if you were busy at a conference or meetings all day, you’re not going to make a one-mile roundtrip adventure just to grab a bite to eat, yet a lot of the ideas and language we use on this site implies that we expect them to do just that. Isn’t that kind of insensitive? If we’re trying to attract business, get impressions, and make money from visitors, shouldn’t we be trying to imagine things from their perspectives and comfort limits?
I agree, but it seems like there’s enough similar amenities, overlapping markets, and public perception that they’re “similar enough”. Regardless of what the facts say, people are driven by what they feel to be true (or, in Stephen Colbert’s words, “truthy”). Seems to me like the people have spoken, no?
He’s probably talking about extremist evangelists in the Black Hebrew Israelite movement. I’ve seen them doing their Pit Preacher-y bit on Fayetteville St. before, a few times, and it’s honestly kind of unsettling.
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I think DTR would really benefit from some more obvious retail and restaurant corridors. There is some great stuff, but a lot of it it feels isolated. NC Museum of Natural Sciences and NC Museum of History are awesome amenities, but there are not cheap, kid friendly restaurants nearby. As others have noted, there isn’t a lot of action on the South End of Fayetteville where the two largest hotels are located. So people may be in DTR for a specific reason, but they aren’t invited to explore bc things are separated.
The downtown is small and nothing is really that far apart, but if it isn’t both obvious and inviting to go somewhere else, people just leave.
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My cousin has visited form Atlanta several times and her impression after several visits (and trips downtown) is that DTR is dead. One time she said she felt really uncomfortable walking around b/c there weren’t many people out and about downtown. She has lived in downtown Denver and downtown Atlanta, Paris, and was in the Peace Corps in Africa. It struck me that she felt safe in those other locations alone, but didn’t feel safe in DRT with me. A few years ago we spent a Saturday walking all over downtown/Boylan/Glenwood South/Museums/Capital, etc… she looked at me and said, “OK, now what?” I know it is only one opinion, but that opinion pretty much backs up what has been mentioned above. When will we ever get that “critical mass” to actually make DTR feel inviting? We have a lot of inertia, but when will it ever be “enough” to become inviting and welcoming on its own outside of a special event or festival?
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Ah. I see. The way they worded (and previous comment history) kinda made me think there might be a bigoted tone in that comment. But yeah I know what you’re referring to. I’ve seen them a few times and just walk by/ignore. If that’s all they see downtown, sounds to me like they don’t get downtown much 
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Downtown is still a decade or so away from what I consider to be inviting. Still too many boarded up abandoned building like the old Remedy diner on my walks. Streetscape work sorely needed to at least make parts of downtown that have been developed more connected.
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Some people seem to see bigotry in every and anything, simple descriptions even, hence the division in the country, maybe it’s even in a persons own mirror sometimes and they don’t see it. But it’s always nice to be insulted once in awhile, keeps you fresh.
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Well there being redeveloped before this Covid mess!!!
I’ve said it before, Raleigh is a great place to live and kind of a crappy place to visit. I moved here because I like many things about the area, including downtown Raleigh. But it’s not exactly made for people to show up and be amazed like it’s Paris. I’m okay with this. I do wish downtown had some more things, but a lot of people who come to visit and have a negative impression strike me as clueless. Not their fault, but I’d do some research before I visit any new city and find out what I should do to make it fun.
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A few years ago we spent a Saturday walking all over downtown/Boylan/Glenwood South/Museums/Capital, etc… she looked at me and said, “OK, now what?”
To be fair also, this was a few years ago.
To me I think the main issue is the dead zones.Fayetteville/Wilmington/Moore Square is a nice section. The Warehouse district is another nice section, and Glenwood is another. N Person has the potential to be another.
All of those are disconnected from each other. Hillsborough Street inside downtown, the N&O Block, the municipal block, the AT&T block, the Justice Center block, the government complex… all form a big canyon of deadness. Someone could easily drive through, stop in that section somewhere, walk a couple blocks, and assume the whole downtown is dead, and I assume that’s what’s happening.
That said, Denver and Atlanta have their fair share of deadzones as well. Really every city does. In fact the more I think about it, the more I think I flat out prefer Raleigh’s downtown to either in terms of food options, but those cities have deliberately cultivated nightlife areas that are bigger than anything Raleigh has and better from a pedestrian standpoint, and they both have multiple indoor malls integrated into their nightlife areas as well.
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