A rising tide lifts all ships.
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Why, then, did he publicly say he doesnāt like his chances at the 28th bid, but that he thinks weāre at top-36 market? Going from 28 to 36, when MLS hasnāt even hinted theyāre going that far, is quite a stretch. Maybe heās just sandbagging on his odds, but it sounds pretty āpipe-dreamyā to me.
Also, in that Morris article, it really does sound like heās resigned to the fact that MLS probably wonāt happen, but he still thinks a stadium is a good investment.
I would argue most of the places that have a MLS team, have extremely expensive downtown property. So they build pretty far out.
In Raleigh, we have cheaper property ITB.
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@John Not sure you are reading my comment correctly.
North Hills does not have a stadium in the middle of it. In this proposal, according to Malik, there WILL be a stadium if this funding gets approved. The question that Kane is faced with is "Will that stadium be the anchor that drives this district or will it essentially be a huge waste of space that could have been better used for something else?
If we get MLS, then this is a much better gamble.
If we donāt, then what you have is 1/4th of this new property being taken up by a giant structure that is only in use by its main occupants (NCFC/Courage) 34 times per season who both average about 5k fans per game (which would likely go up some with a downtown stadium).
I was 100% for MLS coming and still am. But with this much risk involved and this much money on the line, I think these are all very fair questions, and questions that every citizen of Raleigh/Wake County should step back and examine without blinders on.
Kane is securing this land regardless, correct? So why not have the county money be contingent on landing a franchise?
And have any other cities built full-on new stadiums without first landing a franchise?
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In my paragraph that you cited, I was trying to convey a concern with how often the DESC would be used for events other than Malikās soccer teams. At this stage, it would be totally unrealistic to expect Malik to announce that he has an agreement with anyone to hold any event at his facility, but as the requestor of public funds, he has an obligation to provide realistic projections.
I acknowledged in my earlier post that having Mr. Kane involved on the front end guarantees that development will occur on land adjacent to the facility. I also stated I hope it gets built. Who knows, maybe Kane will build a multi-screen theater 
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I can see it now. Few story parking deck pedastal with the stadium on top. Surrounded by stick built apartment / condos.
Exactly my feelings. Make it contingent on landing a franchise. They can build a small stadium now (with plans for expansion), but the money only kicks in when he is awarded an MLS team, and they can expand it at that time for MLS crowds.
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First, welcome to the forum.
Second, thatās not exactly true. If you go out to eat in Wake Co then you pay into this fund. Most of the revenue comes from the restaurant portion, not the hotel portion (though itās like a 55/45 split). I would guess that the vast majority of restaurant visits in Wake are from Wake residents.
Finally, itās true that this is what the fund is meant for, but that doesnāt mean a sports arena is the best use. Iām entirely sure that any and all uses of this money would be a ānet lossā for the region economically. Sports stadiums donāt really generate much new tax revenue (if any) and MLS games donāt generate a huge number of new visitors. But, the same is true for say a museum expansion or a new cultural center. Nothing we spend this money one will āpay for itselfā economically, if it did then we wouldnāt need this tax in the first place.
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From a purely design standpoint, I think you can build a soccer stadium for USL/NWSL now and have space to expand it to MLS size if needed. UC Davisā football stadium is fairly small, but was built to be easily expandable if they become a big-time program.
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@Kevin Yes, I believe starting smaller is smart.
I think simply moving the infrastructure from the Cary facility over to the Penmarc site is probably your best move for the time being (IMO). Itās somewhat temporary but would allow you host games/events while we wait to see if we get a pro franchise.
That wouldnāt be extremely expensive and would be something Malik could do on his own dime. If we landed an MLS bid, or if an MLB expansion/relocation bid started to get traction then you could start talking about county funding (or they could make the funding contingent on landing one if that would help us be selected.)
Then you wait while these expansion decisions are made. If you land one, you build. If you miss on both, then you make your decision. Is it worth building a permanent stadium based on attendance and activation numbers of NCFC/Courage/events? Or is that space better used for something else (perhaps moving the Canes/NC State Basketball downtown)?
I just think fully committing to a permanent stadium with county funding is extremely risky and immediately eliminates all flexibility for the use of what will be some of the most prime real estate in the coming years.
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I think it would be great to put an arena for the Hurricanes in the Penmarc area as well. I drive to and from the Canes games from downtown but if they had a downtown presence I think there would be more energy and excitement in the area around the arena/stadium. It seems that most cities have found downtown arenas/stadiums to be better attractions than the suburban/middle of a parking lot ones. I can imagine all the people walking around and gathering in area restaurants and bars before and after games as opposed to just driving to and from the games. It could be a very exciting atmosphere around games and events.
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Whatās the point of building a smaller arena in Raleigh when we already have a smaller arena in Cary? I think one of the main reasons for this request is to get Raleigh and Wake County committed now so that they will take us seriously. Charlotte already has NBA and NFL. We have NHL. Basically only leaves the MLS and MLB. If we are not aggressive then would probably end up losing both of those to Charlotte. I see most of these suggestions as killers to our chances of getting MLS here in Raleigh.
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@TedF I could be wrong, but I donāt think any city that has gotten an MLS bid has built a stadium before being awarded a franchise. All that Iāve seen have secured land and secured funding and then presented a mockup.
There have been scenarios Iāve seen where older stadiums were up-fit or repurposed for MLS, but I donāt believe Iāve ever seen one built brand new. That would be and is extremely risky (esp for a downtown where land is scarce and expensive).
For the record, MLB teams play 81 home games and on average bring 2.3 million people to their home cities every season. MLS bring 372,000 total in 17 home games. That is a HUGE difference and even with that much potential return on investment for the city/county, I wouldnāt be on board with building a full-on MLB stadium with public funds before securing a franchise. Itās just a risk/reward game with risks greatly outweighing the reward (IMO).
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I will revert back to my comments earlier about the Board of US Soccer and the fact that Steve Malik and Don Garber are the only 2 āpro soccerā representatives. The Board is not very large and Steve and Don have both been on this board for some time.
I feel confident that Steve has been working this relationship behind the scenes for several years as is evidenced by his oftentimes very specific statements. Heās not known for jumping in front of the cameras to just shout how he wants MLS, etc (kind of like the folks in charlotte). Heās much more methodical in his approach. He knows Raleigh doesnāt have a stadium plan. Sacramento, St, Louis and a couple others do have solid stadium plans. Heās been talking with the MLS folks on a regular basis. Heās not saying Raleigh will not get an MLS franchise. Steve knows very well what Raleigh needs to do to be awarded the 28th, 29th, or 30th franchise.
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Were it I structuring the deal, I would say, āOK, Kane & Malik, weāll give you 11 million a year out of our 50 million a year annual pot. However, you are expected to bring in 12.5 back in the pot by your own estimates. As such, if you are short, we will expect a repayment of the delta amount up to the 11 million/per year.ā Therefore, nobody could ever complain the city is in the red. #vavavoom
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Having MLS does not rule out MLB does it? I wouldnāt see that one should exclude the other. I kind of dream of both. I think thereās confusion about ābuildingā the stadium before being awarded the team. In order to get a team a city has to have a plan in place for a downtown stadium with a large show of city support. Thatās what this proposal is about. Weāre trying to be awarded a team by having a plan and support in place. We will never get either MLS or MLB if we are just quiet and complacent. With this process we have learned that downtown Raleigh does not have many good locations for downtown stadiums or arenas. Itās best to grab this spot and identify it and plan it even if itās for future stadiums.
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I believe that Mr. Malik has stated this on Spectrum News Channel , that he wants to build before a MLS decision .
I think John has answered the question of stadium generated economic development pretty well here. The stadium is the catalyst for this development. Kane doesnāt need to go to South Raleigh. The sites theyāre talking about are industrial areas close to downtown that should be redeveloped. The most relevant question is should there be a sports arena inside the beltline, and should it be in proximity to DTR?
ANY sports and entertainment venue proposed in DTR is going to request funds from the Hotel tax. Most proposals would probably involve additional requests from the City, and in some cases the City builds and owns the venue.
MLS wants cities that already have a real stadium deal in place. Building an expandable stadium makes complete sense. I think Malik knows that MLS has long term plans to expand to 32 and then 36 teams. Heās probably a smart guy and knows that a 10K seat stadium now with a growing fan base puts him in good position for the next expansion round. If I were him, Iād be looking forward to that round and then asking the City for funding for the stadium expansion as part of the future MLS bid. If he does build the 10K, fandom ensues, and economic development takes off, then heās in a good position to ask for more of a public contribution.
I donāt mind the $11M/year now, contingent on a specific stadium size. Maybe it scales so that the full $11M is only alotted after full stadium build out? Is it $3M/year for a 10K seat stadium and $11M/year for a 20K? That amount is small compared to the overall development investment and potential economic development of starting near 40 and working back up the corridor towards DT proper. I do think there should be limits to additional public funding if he gets the $11M. Having the $11M, planting the seed and then planning to come back to the well for future expansions is no bueno.
The best example of the projectās potential is also the closest example.
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We just need an army of 2,000 ecoPRTās ready for deployment from Union Station, Fayetteville St, Glenwood South, and North Hills to get people to and from the stadium! 
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