With the intensity of these playoffs, its hard not to imagine a downtown arena. For what its worth, Nashville’s Bridgestone Arena fits perfectly at the possible Wake GSA / Smokey Hollow Phase 4 block.
6 Likes
Yes, MLS definitely isn’t the only sports league dealing with this. There have been stadiums in both MLB and NFL that have done the same thing. And, honestly, every stadium really ought to be designed in such a way as to make it as easy as possible to add or subtract seats as necessary later. But the fact that a team in the country’s largest market was basically forced to do this by plummeting attendance certainly isn’t the best omen for MLS’s continued vitality.
1 Like
Stadium is in NJ. Similar with Chicago’s MLS team attendance problems. Stadium location matters alot, not just market size. If they had built the Red Bulls stadium on one of the piers in Manhattan, probably sell out every game.
2 Likes
Yeah, I know, the stadium is in Harrison. But the Jets, Giants, and Devils all play in Jersey, too, and they all manage to do fine there. (But even if you just counted Hudson, Essex and Bergen counties in New Jersey, that would still be significantly more people than Wake and Durham counties combined.)
I can think of some very, very good reasons why no one wanted to build a soccer-specific stadium in Manhattan.
Anyway, if there is ever adequate demand to support a 20,000-seat arena in downtown Raleigh, I’m sure that the free market will move rapidly to satisfy that demand.
3 Likes
Harrison is a dump and is right across the river from Newark. Just not a good location for a team. I do like Red Bull Stadium. 25k is perfect for an MLS team.
Just for curiosity sake I pulled up the Red Bull Stadium on google maps. I have no familiarity with this area at all, but it looks like it is in the middle of an industrial wasteland. Not a mixed use type (IE North Hills South) area. I think this may be apples and oranges as far as neighborhoods go.
1 Like
Malik and Kane are the free market. They have said they are building the stadium regardless of MLS, County Funds, etc. Any developer from any sport that proposes any type of stadium would ask for available hotel and entertainment tax money. If there is a fund specifically for this type of development it would be irresponsible to their partnerships not to request it. Whether the county agrees to allocate funds to the stadium is an independent issue. I could also see them coming up with an agreement that’s renewable on 5 year terms or some other standard that’s tied to performance.
This isn’t an all or nothing, full public vs full private funding issue. The City and County would be a partner and investor in the team, which could be a big factor in the community feeling that it’s their team, and that they have a stake in it’s future. It’ll be interesting to see what the County decides to do. If they don’t support the MLS stadium, I would be in favor of them rolling back on the tax.
6 Likes
Malik hasn’t said that he’s definitely building the stadium, and/or that he’ll build it regardless of county funds. In fact, he’s actually said the opposite. According to a write-up of an interview with Malik published by the News & Observer on March 21:
“And if public money isn’t allocated for the potential ‘billion-and-a-half-dollar’ project, Malik said he would develop the land in another fashion, along with Raleigh developer John Kane and an undisclosed group of investors.”
https://www.newsobserver.com/news/business/article228117654.html
2 Likes
My mistake. I had seen an interview on Spectrum where I thought he said it wasn’t contingent. My understanding was that without the county funding they would build a smaller stadium and move NCFC rather than a 20,000 seat MLS stadium. That article clearly states that it isn’t contingent on MLS and that there would be another type development.
I had wondered about this since his argument for the funding wouldn’t be as compelling if they “could” build it without County money. If it truly is fully dependent on the Tax then, I think he’ll get it. I don’t think the Commission will deny even the chance for an MLS team, particularly if there’s the possibility for the stadium to be used by Shaw and St Augs. I don’t have a problem with that, and will make sure to let the commissioners know I’m in favor of the funding.
2 Likes
Still…it would be idiotic and extraordinarily short-sighted (actually blind is more appropriate) for Wake County to not agree to at least a sizable portion of the requested dollars. The new hotels and restaurants alone would generate more ‘occupancy & meals tax dollars’ for the City & County…not to mention overall tax base.
6 Likes
Well then, I guess that 86 percent of economists are blind, according to research by the St. Louis Fed, which concluded that local governments would be better off directing public money elsewhere, noting that “The idea that sports is a catalyst for economic development just doesn’t hold water.” (Link below.)
If sports stadiums prompt the construction of new hotels and restaurants, why are there not a ton of hotels and restaurants around PNC Arena and Carter-Finley Stadium, which collectively draw in vastly more people than an MLS Stadium would? There’s literally one hotel within a one-mile radius of PNC. And a stadium that would host 17 games a year (soccer-specific MLS stadiums in other cities host non-soccer related events only very, very rarely) wouldn’t bring in nearly enough traffic to support a hotel or restaurant for 365 days a year.
It would also be mathematically impossible for an MLS stadium to generate enough money in hotel taxes to offset anything more than a tiny fraction of the cost. The reality is that very few people are going to drive to Raleigh and stay overnight in a hotel to watch a two-hour soccer game. Earlier in this thread, folks were pointing out that people in NYC and Chicago don’t want to drive all the way to [checks notes] … the suburbs just to watch a soccer game, so it’s hard to imagine that people are going to be driving in from places far enough away to justify a hotel stay.
Also, while it’s fine to disagree with people (I do it all the time, including right now), it’s kind of rude to call the people who disagree with you “idiotic” or “blind” in lieu of presenting evidence to back your position.
1 Like
Hardly a fair comparison (PNC to a proposed downtown location). I’d have no interest in staying at the hotel next to PNC. There’s nothing to do there. Change the location to downtown Columbus where their hockey team is and I’d stay there in a heartbeat! Go have some drinks before the game, go out after the game. All walk-able. It’s a completely different experience and consideration.
6 Likes
There was supposed to be a hotel at Inside Wade and retail too but the space for more retail was gobbled up by more apartments and the hotel lot is still empty.
The Penmarc location is going to be more like PNC Arena than Nationwide Arena. It’s too far away from downtown to be really walkable assuming they would try and fix Saunders to make it less dangerous for pedestrians.
I still think PNC could become a good entertainment district with some major investments but it seems it’s not even on the radar.
2 Likes
I agree with you (Penmarc not really serving as a walk-able downtown location) though I do think having the Canes/NCFC/future lot for MLB in an “arena district” would be optimal.
6 Likes
That article doesn’t really address the central point of this request. The tax is specific to support arts, culture, sports, and convention centers.
The relevant question is should the tax go to arts, culture, sports or convention centers? The Fed probably wouldn’t give any of those categories high marks for spurring economic development. A big part of this is investing in the culture of your city, which isn’t always dollars and cents.
It’s pretty easy to say it’s not worth it and don’t give them the money. What’s hard is picking something else that fits in those categories and making the case that it’s going to have a bigger or more positive impact on our community than an MLS stadium/team.
7 Likes
They tried developing the area around it, but have had limited success. There’s even a PATH station right there, with direct access to the Financial District in NYC, but the development hasn’t followed. That’s why Malik having Kane on board already is so important.
7 Likes
I recently read that in Freiburg, Germany every ticket to a concert, sports or other event is valid for use on public transport to and from the event. Wouldn’t this be a great way to encourage transit use to/from events downtown and ultimately reduce the amount of parking required at these locations.
Imagine if Dreamville (or IBMA, Hopscotch, future NCFC/MLB, or your favorite event/game/etc) included your fare on transit to and from Dix Park so that you didn’t have to worry about parking.
The cost could basically be bundled with the event ticket, so that its not being given away, and in this case, even if you don’t choose to utilize it, GoRaleigh would receive the benefit anyway.
Interesting thoughts…
12 Likes
I wouldn’t necessarily assume without evidence that economists would not give high marks to arts or culture for spurring economic development. But as it happens, for my day job I’m writing a story about the Opportunity Zone tax credits, which is a major and fascinating component of this whole project. Yesterday I was speaking with a source who would, incidentally, also be particularly well positioned to offer an informed opinion about how likely it is that Malik’s request will get funded, so since we were chatting anyway, I asked about it (on background).
It is definitely exceedingly helpful for Malik’s case that there is this pot of money that more or less has to be spent, and spent on things that aren’t schools or public transit or affordable housing or libraries and such. There’s basically a zero percent chance that Malik could get money that could otherwise be spent on those things, but the relevant decision-makers do seem to be at least somewhat amenable to awarding some of the special hotel tax money for this project, based on what the source said. And the timing is fortuitous because a bunch of money devoted for PNC is about to come off the books.
On the other hand, there’s a lot of competition for this money, including a fresh request from PNC, and there’s not enough money to give both of them everything they want. (One thing that I thought was really interesting is that at this point even the people closest to the decision-making process don’t know how exactly much money Malik is going to be asking for now that the project has moved from Halifax Mall to Penmarc.)
My guess, and this is my opinion now, is that Malik will get offered some, but not all, of the money he’s asking for. And that would set up a really interesting question: How much of his own money is Malik willing to stump up for a stadium? My guess is, because of the nuances of those generous Opportunity Zone tax credits, that it’s going to be not very much money, in which case it’s going to be tough for the city-county to swallow the whole thing. So that’ll be interesting to watch.
And, yes, I know people point to the “sports” word in the hotel tax law and read that as “venues for major professional sports teams,” but that’s not the only way to read that, nor is it the one that would be most conducive to generating tourism revenue. A sports venue that attracts a lot of multi-day amateur and youth competitions (which WakeMed Soccer Park actually does) is going to generate a lot more tourism revenue than a venue that mostly hosts two-hour professional matches (like an MLS stadium). The really tourism is money is from sports participants and their parents, rather than spectators. Now, pro sports venues do some of this, I guess–the Washington Capitals really have bought out quite a few hotel rooms in Wake County the last two weeks. But it’s a hell of an expensive way to do so.
Serious question: Does anybody know if there’s any research that’s been done on whether the Carolina Hurricanes’ runs to the Stanley Cup finals in 2002 and 2006 led to an unusually high amount of hotel tax revenue in May and June of those years? I would predict that the effect would be pretty negligible, but I would certainly be interested in looking at any studies that found something different.
The inherent flaw in the argument from those that argue that sports stadiums just siphon monies that would be used elsewhere is a similar flaw in the argument against public transportation, specifically light & commuter rail in ‘non-traditional’ markets. The one factor that both of these ignore in their analysis is the spin-off economic development that occurs around train stations for example. They completely ignore the high-rise apartments & other high density development around train stops and simply argue ‘trains don’t pay for themselves…using a ticket revenue analysis model’. Leaving out the tax base generated around these stops is convenient for their argument because by itself, light rail does not necessarily pay for itself in most markets…HOWEVER, when one factors the billions of dollars in development activity that occurs around these stations, all of a sudden that economic model looks a hell of a lot better. Virtually identical arguments apply to public support of sports stadiums. The naysayers craft their economic arguments, leaving out key economic variables that ARE VERY RELEVANT when you discuss public financial support of a project like a sports stadium.
7 Likes
Except the trains and transportation aren’t owned by billionaires and used almost exclusively by millionaires.
That’s an apples to orangutans argument you’re making there.
2 Likes