People criticize PNC’s location bc they would like a downtown sports venue. I agree that Raleigh should have a downtown Sports venue, but I also think PNC has a great location. It really is quite convenient to a lot of the Triangle with easy access to 40, 440, and Wade Ave.
I think if the state would allow mixed use development on the site it would be hugely successful and it would make Raleigh’s lack of a downtown venue much less glaring. The Battery in Atlanta is an example.
Also in Atlanta, interesting to see what Georgia State Univ. is doing with the area around the old Braves stadium.
I totally agree with people about the wisdom of allowing more development in this area to create more of an urban experience. You could easily create a cohesive connection to downtown by running BRT along Western Blvd., putting a commuter rail stop at Hillsborough and Blue Ridge, and connecting the two with high-frequency bus service running along Blue Ridge. The Kmart property will surely get redeveloped once BRT comes online, and the state owns a ton of land at the intersection of Blue Ridge and Beryl it could sell for redevelopment. That whole area could really take off.
As you get closer to PNC itself, the floodplain between the arena and Wade Park will always be an issue, but you could build a lot along the north side of Trinity Rd., as Mike suggested. The key would be persuading the state to give up some of that land. Traditionally, the university has been very, very protective against encroachment on their vast sea of parking spaces (ugh), but between improved transit connections and the secular decline in college football attendance nationally, maybe they could be persuaded to see other opportunities. The really, really big opportunity would be if the university was ever willing to relocate its practice field right next to the stadium, but I think they’d be very, very reluctant to part with that, unfortunately (ugh again).
But trying to create more urbanity where the arena is now seems like a very solid plan.
I agree with that too. Hillsborough, Wade, 40, 440 is all there. Soon Blue Ridge and Hills will have a huge infrastructure upgrades. It’s adjacent to the NCRR corridor too. I’ve pondered the ‘what ifs’ of the arena having been part of the original downtown revitalization plan but I come up with the conclusion that the arena was 10 years too late in planning as was downtown’s revitalization. My thinking was that if originally the planning started earlier for the arena in conjunction with a new plan for downtown we could’ve easily had both like in Nashville. I think the problem (based on Nashville) was that our downtown wasn’t necessarily “unsafe” but boring and on a 9-5 life schedule, thus these two undertakings were disjointed.
Also, I think what gets overlooked is the tailgating atmosphere that is a huge part of our hockey and sports culture here. That Montreal media guy saying that the arena is in the middle of nowhere isn’t true, my house is equidistant from PNC and DTR. But it certainly feels that way because it is still so suburban. Hell if they moved the arena downtown it wouldn’t change my Canes game night routine a bit other than my money may go to the Raleigh Times or Boxcar rather than Mitch’s or the PR.
It’s in the middle of nowhere, let’s not kid ourselves. The area couldn’t even support a DMV. It’s there because that’s where State wanted it. As it is to stay there, at some point it would be nice if someone did develop the Blue Ridge corridor finally.
I see this and have to keep from laughing hysterically. @pBeez and I probably are the few members on this board who remember the hype when the PNC Arena was built in 1997. There was going to be all of this collateral entertainment development, and it was going to be the equivalent of the New Jersey Meadowlands. Well, we all see where that went. Hope it wont’ be the same for Downtown South.
I agree that the tailgating experience is important for this area. I think some of the parking can be consolidated in parking decks to allow for mixed-use buildings and offer an urban corridor without sacrificing the tailgating atmosphere.
Oh yes, I remember it well. We dined at 9 - no it was 8. I was on time . . . no I was I was late … Wait. Sorry, I sometimes break out in to song spontaneously.
@R-Dub probably remembers all this too. I recall fighting with my friends about where to put Centennial Arena. I hated to move from Reynolds because I could walk from home - and there was always something special about everyone streaming through campus for events at the Old Barn, storming Hillsborough, or stopping for an adult beverage on the way home.
I was very pro-downtown. I pointed out the easy of travel & the residual effect on DTR itself. I also wanted to protect the awesomeness of tailgating in fields around Carter-Finley. Most of my friends were opposed. None of them spent much time downtown - I was a geek that way, riding the bus down just to walk around in the late 70s & early 80s. But their biggest complaint was traffic to and from a DTR location. As if none of us never sat in long lines waiting to exit Finley Meadows. I pointed out from downtown you could go in 4 directions, on multiple roads - they just wanted to get on the beltline. I never convinced anyone.
Fear of downtown & traffic, and the fact that the land was owned and without existing buildings & thus cheap to develop help put PNC where it is. Of course the foundation was already poured when the hockey team decided to come, so whatever money was saved went to ripping that out and replacing it.
In my mind tt was a missed opportunity. But there it sits, and it would be a waste at this point to dump an existing facility with years still left in it. Another 20 odd years and it will be time to replace it. Move it downtown then? We’ll see, at the rate DTR is developing there might not be room!
All that pavement! Maybe I am too old school, but I just don’t understand how you tailgate on pavement. 2 decades of grass left its effect on me.
And, to be truly the New Jersey Meadowlands, there had to be the relics of the (then) recently demolished Pennsylvania Station dumped unceremoniously nearby. Carter-Finley hasn’t been so gifted (although the demolition debris of the old SOU depot could have been trucked in.)
That being said, there was also the hype of riding the newly established Triangle Transit Regional Rail to go to games at the PNC. Yeah, well, we know where that landed…
Yes, I was around for it @pBeez and @dbearhugnc. And I get so tired of having this decision laid on Fetzer and Coble. Actually I get tired of most references here blaming a party. This decision was bigger than City Council as @daviddonovan points out. It was Fetzer that said NO the city would not be stuck with the cost overruns alone when a pro sports team was the beneficiary. Why don’t “we” ever remember that part of the story?
Except that Garber said there will not be two teams in the Carolinas.
I don’t doubt that he might have said that (if you have a link, though, I’d certainly be interested in reading it), but the next time that somebody waives a perfectly good expansion check and an MLS-caliber stadium under MLS’s nose and the league, “Naw, you keep your $200 million, we’re good,” will be the first time it ever happens, so I’ll believe it when I see it.
I agree with you David on this . Yes , my first love is baseball but I so support a downtown soccer stadium .
They just built that student housing complex on Trinity on the other side of Carter-Finley. Urbanization is coming to this area whether NC State wants it or not. The question is how well will these new developments be integrated with Carter-Finley and PNC. It could go one of two ways. They could really establish some strong pedestrian connections between C-F/PNC and Wade Park, perhaps even develop some (not all…preserving the tailgates) of the parking lots to connect the areas better (Dundon has alluded to this), or they could do nothing and the area will not be fully actualized. This seems like a no-brainer to me. Between 41 regular season Canes games, 2-3 preseason games, playoff games (if we’re lucky), 6 NC State football games, approximately 14-15 NC State basketball games, plus concerts, this area has something going on about once every three days. With additional residential and office nearby, bars and restaurants could make a killing.
I’m very pro-downtown-sports-venue, but for a different reason than the classic “it’ll stimulate the local economy…”
Instead of wanting a stadium downtown for its potential effects on surrounding businesses, I want one downtown to make the venue itself and the events themselves more attractive to visitors and locals alike. I’d be MUCH more interested in attending Canes games (or MLB games 
) if the evening consisted of R-Lining in to the venue with a bunch of fellow fans, hitting the surrounding bars pre/postgame, and R-Lining back out. If I lived further out, I’d enjoy Ubering or park/riding in for a genuine “night on the town” experience. Or—my favorite scenario—making an entire DTR day of it for Saturday/Sunday games! Take the kids to Marbles, hang at Moore Square, walk/pedicab to the game, etc. Wife/kid would rather catch a movie? No problem! Y’all go to IMAX, I’ll catch up with you after the game!
My thinking is more experience-oriented than economic-effect-oriented. Imagine trying to have an experience like this at PNC? I get that the tailgate atmosphere would be the trade-off, but I’m fine with that. Suburban venues just don’t allow for this kind of experience, no matter how many Chipotle’s and Red Robin’s you build on Blue Ridge.
Yep, I’m not much into sports but the lack of hotels in Downtown Raleigh is not surprising because the lack of major events happening in DTR because all the concerts and sports events happen in suburbia. Either at PNC arena area or at the Walnut Creek Amp.
It is certainly interesting to be on the metro in Rome when one of the soccer teams is playing - all the home and visiting fans packing the trains to get to the street car for the ride out to the Olympic Stadium. It certainly builds excitement. Good points @wmgadd
I don’t think your position is really a ‘different reason’ than the economic argument. The ‘experience’ drives the latter. PNC simply doesn’t do anything in terms of an ‘experience’. You can tailgate downtown if the arena was downtown. You don’t need a sea of lifeless parking for tailgating to occur. Chapel Hill, Auburn, Notre Dame all have pretty good tailgating experiences WITH stadiums on campus and no ginormous ashpalt parking lots surrounding the stadiums. NC State fans will try to argue otherwise, I know but their bias hurts their claim of a ‘better tailgating experience’.
I saw firsthand this week in Nashville what a ‘better overall experience’ generated in terms of concentrated economic spending which feeds upon itself and drives much more economic growth than a bunch of cars driving in and out of a parking lot a couple times a week.
I think there are great points being made here. I’m all about the economic development boost as well as the higher quality experience. I’m for both of those.
For a lot of people (not on this forum, how DARE they 
) downtown is a destination only. That means they can say that downtown sports makes sense. If they only experience downtown on sports-related occasions, they will have a false impression that downtown is lively because of the sports. I think this is only part of the story.
I am highly sensitive when sports in downtown could create a cavernous hole in downtown at a time when downtown cannot “swarm” the area around it when there are no sports or events going on. This is why I feel there is an argument to say that putting PNC (ESA if we want to be accurate) was put in the right place at the right downtown.
But now? We’re getting there and I think downtown sports would be the cherry on top as opposed to the foundation for downtown.
