@Phil Fair enough. I was just using my own personal experiences as a reference. We’re going from a mental health campus to an urban park. So, the surrounding environment is going to have to be retro-fit. Most urban parks came first with development later.
I’ve not been to Austin, and have very little experience with Charlotte or Atlanta.
@R-Dub Not yet. But, Five Horizons is just the tip of the iceberg.
I think the intent and purpose of parks was somewhat cemented by Olmsted. His whole thing was to get away from the unhealthy city (there was no EPA back then, and mostly no sewers or water treatment. Horse poop knee deep in streets was standard issue. Smoky Hollows abounded from factories and trains spewing coal smoke everywhere). Before him giant sprawling parks didn’t really exist. There were urban squares (Like Raleigh’s) but not many…there were also Commons though and they were nasty little places…certainly not a picnic ground. Anyway, people didn’t think good urban experience back then…if anything they were trying to get away from the City and street cars began and cars finished off that venture until just a few years ago when people returned.
Do you have any examples? The only other project that I know of is the townhouses on New Bern and they looked great last time I drove by. The think the fact that they’re using LOHA instead of someone like J. Davis seems promising.
What’s wrong with J. Davis?
They just seem hit or miss on design, in my unqualified opinion.
Another thought. The rezoning was denied because it was determined to be inconsistent with our 2030 Comprehensive Plan. And yet each of the commissioners seemed to generally be in favor of the project, CAC overwhelmingly favors the project, and it is consistent with the Future Land Use Map. So the question is why is the Comprehensive Plan document the bible that trumps everything else and why doesn’t the Comprehensive Plan match other city documents like FLUM. Sure does make it difficult for developers to do business here if our city cherry picks which document to follow in which scenario.
Similar to Kane’s Cabarrus PD rezoning request… If this gets denied, are they aware the alternative? 3 stories residential and industrial.
I haven’t really reviewed the 2030 plan but it seems to me that this was a document created when Raleigh was a very different place. We’ve already jumped so far ahead of what was even envisioned for 2030 I think it’s time to scrap that plan and create a new one with a longer time horizon.
The context to think of here is not “South Saunders,” it is Dix Park. Dix Park is definitely in the same realm as Balboa Park in San Diego.
Not only that but the firm that created the 2030 comprehensive plan were outsiders flown in from Boston.
Not to say they weren’t very educated and knew their stuff, but they aren’t here daily to see how things have evolved since then.
In my view, they’re one of a handful of firms that are responsible for the vast majority of generic, repetitive, cheaply built eyesores in both downtown Raleigh and Durham and are a bit of a joke in the design community for that reason. Of course, they have a few projects that are exceptions (FNB Tower, for example), but LOHA is just a completely different class of design studio.
The Five Horizons people told us at a SW CAC meeting that they went with LOHA because they presented more innovative possibility at essentially the same cost as less innovative options.
I remember them saying that. I personally think there’s more at play, because it’s so far out of left field… there’s got to be a personal connection there that made it happen. I also find it hard to believe LOHA’s design fee is any lower than local firms of the same caliber. In any case, thrilled for them to be involved.
However, world-class innovative architecture is not consistent with the 2030 plan 
And, that’s going to have to play into the conversation about what needs to happen with this strip of land. Who gets to have this proximity to a coveted municipal amenity. It would be one thing where there were more park borders to build on, but the site is constrained on at least three sides (unless the state opens the land between the Farmer’s Market and Dix Park up to development.
From the looks of this, at least half of Fuller Heights gets consumed by this process. Caraleigh is going to have to resort to the possibility of a NCOD, or they’re going to have the same thing happen.
I certainly agree that they seem to be perceived this way, but I think sometimes it’s harsh to judge the designer for providing exactly what the client/owner wants and what the market demands.
I hear you, and I understand it’s a mix of developer/market requirements and the skill of the designers themselves. Still:
Good design does not need to be expensive. It just takes imagination, and for a designer to have the skill and care to innovate. Firms like J Davis take the same tired formula, move pieces around, and plop them onto a new site, because it’s profitable and it’s easy.
The market “demands” poor, unimaginative design because there is not enough competition to require developers to raise the bar, so they keep hiring the same shit firms. Who cares, it’ll fill up anyway, right? Again, more reason to be excited about newcomers.
Yeah I definitely agree with you on the need for and the possibilities inherent in good design. It’s just hard to criticize without some nuance. If somebody wants to pay too much for a bad product, on some level I would be unintelligent to not provide the product. Agree that newcomers are welcome, but the Triangle has a pretty good amount of design talent. Why has the bar not already been raised? Is Walmart evil for giving the people what they want? Maybe… I don’t like it, but I can’t fault them. Not starting an argument, just thinking out loud.
Now we just need to host a World’s Fair or grand exposition at Dix, like they did at Balboa about a century ago, and use that money to add some nice buildings and landscaping quickly.
Someone mentioned Forest Park in St Louis - the Art Museum, many of the lakes and most of the fountains are relics of the 1904 Lewis & Clark Centennial World’s Fair and Exposition - as is the core of Wash U’s campus. World’s Fairs are money losers, but they can leave behind some nice things.
Yup. Forest Park (a little closer to home for me) was the site of the 1904 Louisiana Purchase Exposition (World’s Fair) in Saint Louis. The core of the Washington University campus was actually the site of the adjacent 1904 Olympics. And, there are definitely extant relics from that.
Then, there’s the Midway Plaisance in Chicago left over from the 1893 World Columbian Exposition.
