Commuter Rail - Garner to West Durham

Extremely disappointing. Was there any consideration given to how sticking to a plan and delivering 3 years earlier might improve the already-planned projects’ outlook due to build-up around future transit stops? And won’t there be a need to reassess based on new projections 3 years from now?

Is this always going to be “10 years away”?

I’m no expert, so maybe this is hands-down the best and only option they had… but it’s really frustrating to see the timeline casually extended by 40%+ almost like it doesn’t really even matter.

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Does it matter? Not to the powers that be. There will be no penalty for them. Better to move slowly or do nothing than make a mistake. This is the risk-averse world we live in today.

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I always thought of GoTriangle’s screwups as technical issues sprinkled with project management incompetency. …but maybe you’re right; I wonder if (aside for passing the commuter rail project off to NCDOT and making it work like New Jersey Transit or New York’s MTA) hiring more, dedicated, experienced people is exactly what they need. :confused:

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Frankly it will be hard to recruit those sort of people to an organization with the track record of GoTriangle at this point.

NCDOT Rail already has a bunch of competent people. They have the relationships with NCRR, NS, CSX, Amtrak, the highway division, and even the political players here. They have a massive public engagement apparatus for holding public meetings, an environmental division for producing EIS… The commuter rail would be additional workload, but they could get away with hiring less experienced people in order to staff up - and rely on their existing staff to help get them up to speed.

As a wake county resident paying the transit tax, I would fully support GoTriangle essentially subcontracting this project to NCDOT rail. The rail division would probably appreciate the funding infusion. They could add staff and build competency that could eventually help them to deliver on even bigger things like the SEHSR.

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That’s fantastic. Mostly they are along freeways- which means that expanding Bus-On-Shoulder to these corridors (to bypass traffic), and some sort of (hopefully simple/cheap) station integrated into the interchanges could be a great way to expand rapid transit to the parts of our region not easily served by rail.

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To answer your question, I waded through the USDOT/FTA’s annual budget recommendations listed since FY97, and I can truly feel that we aren’t being singled out. And, we aren’t the only metropolitan area to have more than one proposal fail in that interval. Los Angeles, the District of Columbia, and New York City also have that similar distinction. But, for the most part, LA, DC, and NYC appear to have gotten back up, fixed their failed plans and come back again in fairly short order. Our failed projects have not rebounded as successfully or as quickly. DC, being the political hub that it is, has also had projects move forward in the ‘Medium-Low’ range where other projects well outside of the District not faring as well.

Without diving in to each of the failed proposals, the reasons for failure usually are from shortfalls in local funding, unexpected cost overruns during the Preliminary Engineering phase, or disagreements between stakeholders. All issues that we’ve stumbled into with our two failed proposals.

In FY97, the south Boston Piers, Phase 2, Los Angeles Eastside Corridor Extension, Oklahoma City MAPS Link and Portland South/North Corridor failed to make it past Preliminary Engineering. Austin’s Northwest/North Central Corridor, Hartford’s Griffin Line, Los Angeles’ West Central, Maryland’s Waldorf Corridor Study, Miami’s East/West Corridor, Norfolk’s Virginia Beach Corridor, San Diego’s Mission Valley East Corridor, and Vermont’s Burlington-Essex Corridor failed to make it past the Major Investment Study/Systems Planning stage.

In FY98, Boston’s Piers, Phase 2, Los Angeles’ Eastside Corridor Extension, San Francisco’s Bayshore, and Washington’s Metrorail to Largo Town Center failed at Preliminary Engineering. Some of the same agencies which failed at getting Major Investment Studies showed up again and not making the cut. This is the first entry for the RTP Regional Transit Plan to show up, in the Major Investment Study.

FY99’s Annual Report is currently not available.

FY00 had Salt Lake City’s Downtown Connector fail at the FFGA stage, but later did get funded. Dallas-Fort Worth’s ‘RAILTRAN’ appeared to have failed in the Final Design stage as did Seattle-Tacoma’s Sounder Commuter rail in their first design proposal. There were numerous other failures too numerous to even begin to list them, some of which do get resurrected later. ‘RAILTRAN’ eventually becomes Trinity Railway Express which is now in operation, and Seattle-Tacoma’s Sounder system finally does get funded and continues in operation to the present.

FY01 sees Baltimore’s Central Corridor Light Rail double tracking, Chicago’s Metra Central Kane Corridor get some money for Preliminary Engineering even though they scored a ‘Low-Medium.’ Fort Lauderdale’s Tri-Rail Commuter Upgrade scored a ‘Low-Medium’ in the Final Design phase and still moved forward. And, the DC MetroRail’s Dulles Corridor scored a ‘Low-Medium’ in Preliminary Engineering while still getting funding.

FY02 didn’t see much in the way of denials. Raleigh-Durham’s Regional Transit Plan, Phase 1 was in the Preliminary Engineering phase at this point.

FY03 saw some familiar players fizzling in Preliminary Engineering – Cincinnati’s Interstate 71 Corridor LRT, Miami’s North 27th Avenue, San Juan’s Tren Urbano Minillas Extension, and Tampa’s Tampa Bay Regional Rail System.

FY04 had Fort Collins’ Mason Street Transportation Corridor, New Orleans Desire Corridor, and Minneapolis Northstar Corridor Rail Project not be recommended for Preliminary Engineering. Minneapolis came back with a revised plan which did get funded. Tampa still could not get past Preliminary Engineering, and are still stuck in a perpetual planning mode to the present - likely moving forward with BRT than regional rail.

FY05 had Raleigh-Durham’s Regional Rail System moving into the Final Design phase with a ‘Medium’ rating at a total capital cost of $843M and $413M to be requested from the FTA (49%). Boston’s Silver Line, Phase 3, Fort Collins’ Mason Corridor, Los Angeles’ Mid-City/Exposition LRT, Philadelphia’s Schulkill Valley MetroRail not get recommended at the Preliminary Engineering phase. Los Angeles’s Exposition line eventually returns with revisions and has how been built.

FY06 has the same players struggling to make it past the Preliminary Engineering phase. The Raleigh-Durham Regional Rail has a ‘Medium’ rating going in to the Final Design, but with New Starts being asked for 60% funding from which is a red flag.

FY07 has Raleigh-Durham’s Regional Rail falling into a ‘Medium-Low’ finance rating. Philadelphia’s Schuylkill Valley MetroRail is also in trouble, getting a ‘Low’ rating. The Schuylkill Valley project failed, and is now cancelled due to lack of federal funding. Efforts to recurrect the project have not gained much traction, due in no small part that the line is actively owned/operated by Norfolk Southern.

FY08 sees the Portland South Corridor I-205/Portland Mall LRT in trouble as also Seattle’s University Link LRT Extension right at the Full Funding Grant Agreement. Raleigh-Durham Regional Rail, Phase 1 has now fallen off of the table.

FY09 sees the New York Access to the Region’s Core, Sacramento’s South Corridor Phase 2, San Francisco’s Central Subway LRT struggling at Preliminary Engineering. Stamford’s Urban Transitway, and Wilmington DE’s Improvements in the NEC corridor also are struggling in the Final Design phase.

FY10, FY11, FY12, FY13, FY14, FY15, and FY16 see pretty much all projects in the pipeline moving forward with scores in the ‘Medium,’ Medium-High,’ and ‘High’ at all levels of the process. Projects in trouble in FY09 appear to have moved forward. But, New York’s Access to the Region’s Core has dropped out because of New Jersey pulling support for the project.

FY17 sees the Durham-Orange LRT showing up for the first time in New Starts Project Development with a capital cost listed at $1.8B with a total Capital Investment Grant request of $910M at 50%. It doesn’t have a score at this point.

FY18 sees the Durham-Orange LRT still listed in Project Development with no rating listed. The New Jersey-New York Secaucus-Hudson Tunnel Project first appears in the table.

FY19 sees the Durham-Orange LRT now being listed as ‘Medium’ with a capital cost listed at $2.4B and total Capital Investment Grant of $1.2B meeting the standard 50%. No other projects on the table appear to be in trouble.

FY20 sees the Durham-Orange LRT moving in to the New Starts Engineering phase with a continued ‘Medium’ rating. The New Jersey Hudson County North Portal Bridge and New Jersey-New York Secaucus-Hudson Tunnel Project, keys for the Amtrak Gateway, are scoring ‘Medium-Low’ which is an ominous sign. The financial plan for the tunnel changed significantly, which resulted in an overall project cost increase from $13.6B to $13.7B, due to an increase in the finance charges from $2.1B to $2.3B. That being said, it’s being given a high priority and still appears on target for a FFGA with the tunnel opening for revenue service by 2030.

So, there aren’t a lot of projects showing up since FY09 as ‘Medium-Low.’ That means one of two things: 1) the local transit systems are learning the rules and doing their homework before submitting a proposal, or 2) the FTA isn’t being as robust with their Annual Report now as they used to be. Twenty years ago, that document could run as much as 400 pages including the funding recommendations and an overview of each New Start system. Now, the document may be only 16 pages.

All of these can be found at: Annual Report on Funding Recommendations | FTA

[Am thankful for my working copy of Acrobat. Downloaded the pdf’s from the FTA website. Deleted the extra pages outside of the core financing tables, and then exported them to Excel. Made the process move much more smoothly, but it also made me wistful of my days doing my post-doctoral health policy work - having to physically go over to the Duke Medical library, pull the bound journal volumes, copy the specific articles, and then manually transcribe the data to begin the meta-analysis. Oy, what a difference!!]

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Wow. Thanks for going through all that!

I was going to double-check your work and see if I could find out why there’s fewer “Medium-Low”-rated submissions… …but man. Even for me, just trying to skim the executive summaries of all of those reports (let alone entire reports) was too much :skull: If someone ever makes an AI-based natural-language processor that finds stats like this for you, I swear you’d make so much bank from lazy people like me.

It also sounds like a lot rules behind project rankings changed in 2009 and 2014 (arguably also 2017?); it seems like this is partly responsible for @orulz’s comments about the 2007 attempt at regional rail is coming from.

From googling the names of some of these projects that showed up repeatedly, these projects’ challenges sound especially familiar; normal-text projects sounded like our current situation of being stuck in “perpetual planning mode”, bold projects were eventually given up on, and italic projects eventually got out of their rut.

All of these cities are roughly similar in size and stature as far as people who aren’t from these areas are concerned -and all except for Sacramento and Portland were trying to kickstart new fixed-guideway systems for the first time in their failed proposals. With that in mind, you’re right, it doesn’t immediately look like GoTriangle’s failures are unique.

I’ll need more time to sit down and look at these projects in more detail, but if anyone wants to get ahead of me, the links are there to get started?

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And, considering that there was a threat to cancel the New Starts program altogether, it just simply adds to the pain.

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Agreed. I had to excise the bulk of the text and just look at the Excel data. Made the process a whole lot less heinous. (Apparently the blog doesn’t digest .xlsc files, so I can’t upload and share those directly. Can convert to .pdf if interested.)

The results are ready for prime time. Early studies indicate Triangle commuter rail line a potentially viable project | GoTriangle

I’ve made clear multiple times that I am heavily involved in transit activities in the region, so first I do want to note that I share your frustration that four years after voting to tax ourselves with the promise of commuter rail, GoTriangle is now saying “early” studies indicate a “potentially viable” project. But I want to stress that considering the DOLRT fiasco, GoTriangle has to use these weasel words lest they be laughed out of the room.

What I do want to see, and what GoTriangle has a hard time explaining, is an outline of exactly why it’ll be different this time. They allude to it as far as getting agreements from the railroads in the next phase (before design and funding commitments occur) but their PR spin doctors continually tiptoe around the real issue: why should this region trust GoTriangle to get it right this time? I’m sorry, I know they’re trying to keep up appearances, but they gotta eat some humble pie and tell people “here’s what we did wrong with light rail and here’s how we’re proactively taking steps to fix those issues for commuter rail.” And it shouldn’t come from APTA or a watchdog, it needs to come from them.

Otherwise, looks exciting! :joy:

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IMO, the Wake/Apex line benefits DT Raleigh more than Garner/Durham.
Though both would go through DT Raleigh, the Wake/Apex line only goes through 1 major employment center: downtown. Garner/Durham benefits DT Raleigh and Durham, plus RTP, and is would be a marketing tool that puts DT Raleigh into competition with the other employment centers.

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I’d be willing to bet Apex-WF is a more dense corridor than Garner-Durham per mile of track

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I’m glad they finally wrapped up the initial study, and found that there’s some routes (with relatively frequent service) that has a fighting change in the CIG program.

…but honestly, I feel like this is still step 1 out of 500,000 to regain our (my) trust. Sure, we may have been able to bring stakeholders to the table, but so far, GoTriangle’s still been the only one with skin in the game.

Plus, both of its prior attempts at federally funding massively new transit projects made it in to the first two stages of the New Starts pipeline. They’re still at the parts of the process before their prior mistakes; we’re not even at the hard part of this whole process yet… and without a new leader or the action to show for it, it still doesn’t feel any different.

I’ll believe GoTriangle’s CIG project management abilities when I see it, I guess :confused:

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The only, and probably minor, issue I see with Apex-Wake Forest is the engineering work that’s going to be required for the yet-unbuilt North Platform at RUS. It will only need to be 300 feet in length while also requiring the tunnel box to be built as well. And, while they’re at it, they could even go ahead with the East Platform in the same build.

The North Platform can then be later extended for SEHSR (with its accompanying closures of Jones and Harnett streets)

On the flip side, there’s less work which would need to be done for commuter side of the South Platform. But, I’d like to see the West Street extension done first.

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Need some of you on Twitter to help defend this plan. Several are saying “No RDU, no rail” on MAB’s tweet supporting the line. I know many of you agree that’s not a good idea.

Given how much exposure her tweets get, some good constructive responses to those that disagree with the plan would be great.

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I don’t do twitter. And I would like an RDU stop or extension for rail. But I realize it’s not feasible at this point.

But these guys all or nothing approach is just asinine.

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Would love to help if I could and thank you for the info, but I don’t tweet… :upside_down_face:
I used to do other types of social media but I found that it look up way too much of my time and I actually stay off of social media except for this blog of course!

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I don’t feel the need to respond to people who say “No RDU, no rail” - the irony though of the Raleigh Republican Club tweeting one of those responses when a rail connection to RDU would completely blow up the budget of this project…

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I’m less intending to convince the nay sayers as much as I’m trying to provide a thoughtful reason why it’s a bad idea so drones that read their response don’t just jump on that bandwagon. It’s an opportunity to present thoughtful perspectives and educate. Haters gonna hate. Just don’t take everybody down with you (not YOU, obv).

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The perception that a any type of rail service NOT serving the airport is a bad idea seems to persist and will continue to persist. I’ve come to terms with it but I’m always surprised when I run into people that think this way.

From my perspective, it’s basically been broken down and considered an expensive plan to serve RDU, we’d be paying a lot of money for so few riders. Clearly, it needs to be brought up again and again.

If there was a section in the Jarrett Walker transit plan from 2015 (?) that talked about rail to the airport, I may buy www.railtoRDUisabadidea.com and post it there for easy sharing.

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