Compared to how much is spent yearly on road maintenance? Sprawling infrastructure, etc…
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Understood, but not really looking to compare. 
I just don’t want to buy a $100,000 vehicle before I know that I can afford the yearly operations and maintenance first. Otherwise it’ll be going on the credit card… 
For what it’s worth, the business community is still supportive of it. The Regional Transit Alliance (the Triangle’s transportation-focused version of a Chamber of Commerce) sent an open letter to GoTriangle, NCRR, and NCDOT’s leaders to advocate for just that:
Still, like the article said, I think funding is the biggest issue. Durham and Raleigh have been arguing and bending over backwards to come up with the ~$1 billion, which is just half of the old cost estimate that wouldn’t be covered by federal grants. (Durham, in particular, is still unclear on the dollar value that they’ll reserve for the project in their ongoing update for their county transit plan. Their draft plan does acknowledge that they’re still committed to the project, but even this wasn’t certain just months ago.)
Even if they could split up some infrastructure upgrades into their own state/federally-funded projects to bring down the commuter rail project’s price tag, it’s still a hell of a lot. So I think it helps to appreciate that even if every single voter in the Triangle vocally supported this project, raising enough money to make this happen is not an easy task. We may think we need commuter rail to become the best Triangle that we can be, but that does not mean we’re entitled to federal grants.
I’m enthusiastic and want to make this happen, too. But like @orulz said, I think we need to recognize how this is not an easy fight to win. All of us on here have a responsibility, then, to show our conditional support and enthusiasm when GoTriangle releases their phase 2 feasibility study’s results to public comments. This also means we should clarify that we want a train system that does what it’s supposed to for the region.
After all, when even an average, randomly-picked station in Tokyo gets thousands of daily users when they look like this…
…I think it means there’s some value engineering that can be done to make this project more financially palatable.
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Yes cost is obviously a big factor. But this region needs to determine if it wants to be future Houston, Atlanta, Pheonix suburban Sparleigh hell, or something more sustainable, ‘livable’ and equitable for people to get around the area.
The area will continue to grow exponentially with or without the rail. Don’t know about you, but I would not want to deal with this. And probably costs about the same in the grand scheme.
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So, here’s a question. I gotta think a decent part of the $3B estimate is double tracking the section from Cary-West Durham, no? (Even then, seems high, but I’m not an expert).
Amtrak’s ConnectUS plan details the addition of new Piedmont round trips plus more Carolinian and long distance trains from CLT-RGH-DC-NY. They don’t give specifics, but especially with the S-line I could see passenger rail throughput doubling (or more) from CLT-Raleigh if things go to plan.
Would Amtrak/USDOT not also see the need to double track this section if they plan to run so many more trains? Just find it hard to imagine that Raleigh and Durham and/or NCDOT should bear this cost alone.
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This is technically from another city (Chicago) but thought best to post in a more rail specific thread.
I have no idea if these are special but they looked cool/new for Amtrak so I wanted to share.
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Yep, these are going to be pulling Amtrak’s new fleet: this article states they have 83 on order with the option for another 130. I expect we’ll see them on some North Carolina routes within the next 3-5 years. Hoping NCDOT ends up ordering similar sets for the Piedmont service, but we’ll see.
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Those are the new Siemens locomotives?
Yes, they are the new Siemens Charger SC-44 units being built in Sacramento for Amtrak.
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Interesting note at the very bottom of the upcoming GoTriangle Board of Trustees agenda:
Based on stakeholder input to date, the options for an initial phase of service that are being evaluated include: (1) West Durham to RTP, (2) Ellis Road or RTP to Raleigh Union Station, and (3) Raleigh Union Station to Auburn.
Seems like a phased approach to corridor buildout is becoming increasingly probable.
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That West Durham to RTP segment is going to be a major undertaking given the plethora of grade crossings.
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That’s why I don’t understand why that would be an initial phase option. Seriously, you need Raleigh to be part of an initial phase. If Wake County and Raleigh are going to foot most of the bill, you don’t start it in Durham.
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Raleigh’s failure to take leadership in the region’s public transit initiative means that GoTriangle is based in Durham and is heavily influenced by its heavily Durham-based employees. Of course they would entertain such an option for phase 1. Durham-Orange Light Rail project would have never happened if GoTriangle was based in Raleigh. Now we have a failed light rail project that will prevent any further regional ambitions for light rail or any rail–including this project.
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Is there any way to get GoTriangle relocated to Raleigh, the alleged alpha city of the Triangle? Or just dissolve the darn thing and begin anew in Raleigh?
Im gonna ask Minu Lee if we should just give a middle finger to GoTriangle because Raleigh has shown it can take over it’s transit system with how it’s planning BRT. If it can do that then it can split away with GoTriangle.
On the bright side, though, this agenda also suggests that Durham County will be genuinely committed to funding and supporting commuter rail, according to their soon-to-be-adopted County Transit Plan update!
If you read closely at the engineering challenges that the Durham-RTP segment has that @dbearhugnc is talking about, Durham-based planners are suggesting a way to find a way to make commuter rail work in that difficult segment more quickly, and with a new competitive federal grant program:
Note that some of the numerical modeling results, like the ridership expectation of 12,000-18,000/day, is based on FTA-required methods that are pretty conservative. See this explanation from this month’s Planning & Legislative Committee agenda for more details.
The agenda also includes detailed minutes from the Board of Trustees meeting back in August, where GoTriangle’s Chief Development Officer Katharine Eggleston talked more about the reasons for cost increases. Keep in mind that this discussion (or the results thereof) was NOT a part of the agendas and slide decks we saw when we had the meeting agenda last month; this implies that we could see similar discussions flare up tomorrow, too, despite the grim-looking notes that we see now.
This means that, clearly, GoTriangle’s leadership isn’t happy with the idea of breaking up the commuter rail into phases (beyond the future extension ideas into Selma or Hillsborough/Mebane) either. But whether the idea of fast-tracking infrastructure upgrades for Durham would be enough to appease their concerns won’t be clear until tomorrow’s meeting. It’s publicly streamed on Zoom, if you care enough to watch.
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Thanks for the info. Let’s get this thing done. Public input in favor of the project still probably has a lot of value at this point.
I’ve expressed this before, but I wish there was a way to get Amtrak/federal DOT to commit some money to double-tracking. They plan to significantly increase their throughput on the NCRR according to the ConnectUS 2035 plan; if the infrastructure improvements required for commuter rail will so clearly benefit them too, I find it hard to believe that local gov should foot the entire bill. Let’s hope these grants work out.
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They’re not; the one big, unchanging assumption here is that the federal government would foot 50% the bill (the largest share local agencies are allowed to ask for) through the New Starts grant program.
Remember, though,.. (click me!)
…that we’re not guaranteed or entitled to that money at this time. Local agencies need to:
- show that their ideas make sense (that’s the step we’re at now);
- let the FTA know that they want to enter the pipeline of competitive projects;
- do an environmental analysis;
- design what they want to build, and;
- gather up all the non-federal money that will be spent.
Only then, IF the feds decide they like your program and a handful of others over your competition from across America, will you get that money.
As a reminder, “non-federal money” should include state funding support, but the sad truth is that the safe and reasonable thing for GoTriangle to do is to assume this won’t happen. One reason why the Durham-Orange light rail failed is because they wanted to ask the state to pay for 10% of the project costs but the Tea Party-dominated General Assembly went out of their way to add a “fuck you” amendment to the state budget that targeted it with… what’s the word they used that one time… surgical precision.
Remember that GoTriangle knows the one thing they cannot do is to repeat any of the mistakes from the light rail failure (including how external pushback like those from Duke could’ve been pre-emptively addressed with better stakeholder management), so it’s helpful to look at the commuter rail project’s designs and decisions through that lens. This means they have to assume that the state will be hostile to the project (which may happen again if state Republicans get a veto-proof supermajority in both chambers this November) and that they have to self-fund as much as they can.
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It’s should takeover GoRaleigh let GoTriangle fall on its face. It’s regional we have to remeber not Raleigh’s. We can propose our own expansions. They done a great job with BRT planning they’re doing it faster than GoTr unless Raleigh demands a takeover yes I will tweet at mayor Baldwin.
Reported by the N&O (the same article can also be ready for free via Mass Transit Magazine), after Wednesday’s Board of Trustees meeting, we have more context about that idea to split the Raleigh-Durham commuter rail project into multiple phases.
GoTriangle’s Chief Development Officer did acknowledge that it would ultimately be more expensive to build the full Durham-Garner rail line in phases versus all at once. Still, it doesn’t change the ugly truths that we don’t have the money to do it all at once and that there are still unresolved details that could derail the project if it’s tackled now in its current state (versus NCDOT dealing with the east Durham rail bridge issues when they get to it).
There is good news for the region, though: it seems like GoTriangle’s leaning towards the Raleigh-RTP route rather than Raleigh-Garner as the first segment.
The final feasibility study is slated to be released for public comment this January. That’s when we will need to do everything we can to show support for this project, so let’s keep an eye out for that!
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