If only we/DTR had an “idea” of what we/DTR actually wanted then maybe we’d have something similar? “Rail-Trail” what an idea! 
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Heh. Yeah there’s a lot of potential to do something like this along with the SEHSR S-line project since there are two parallel corridors heading north from downtown, and there’s really no reason there has to be.
Many bytes of text have been spent on that matter on here over the years.
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Aren’t there still billions to be awarded from the $1T+ infrastructure bill? I know nothing of what portion of that was earmarked for rail specifically, but I’ve heard that only a portion of those funds have trickled down to state agencies at this point…?
I just had the thought to check on whether this money is still available since it has not yet been spent. Sometimes appropriations have a deadline.
In this case, both of the appropriations authorizing the programs under which these grants were awarded, are listed as “To remain available until expended.” This appears to show that there is no congressionally-imposed deadline, nor can I find any indication of a deadline imposed by FRA upon award of this grant.
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It is my knowledge, as a regional transportation planner, that the funds from the IIJA (Bi-partisan Infrastructure Bill) are scheduled to be depleted due to recent funding commitments for projects under construction, planned or currently being designed. Sadly, the high demand for new projects, fueled by this bill, is also “forcing” consultants to charge more for their services.
(Please take this with a grain of salt, this may not be completely true)
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Great to see this! Also thanks for the shout out, even with not being in Raleigh for the past ten months lol
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As seen in the new survey – GoTriangle is gearing up their new messaging for the future of rail service in Wake County as it pertains to the transit plan.
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This is a good backup plan add on to what’s being invested it could be easily adopted as a local service.
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Sounds very noncommittal
The Wake Transit plan could invest in existing infrastructure, new stations, upcoming routes, etc.
Ok well we voted on the tax increase 8 years ago. Let’s get on with it!
I am curious though how a Wake county fund would work with NCDOT/VDOT to upgrade / invest in just the Wake county parts of the service. What does the Piedmont need? Newer trains that can start and stop more quickly so that adding a station in Wake county doesn’t slow the whole route. Are we going to help subsidize the whole line? I would think not
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ITB subway >>>>>>>>>>>>> commuter rail.
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Honestly, after all these decades, this is sad. I dont want to give up, but really…
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What would the downsides be to trying to work with the Carolinian to just add 2 more trains in the morning and 2 in the evening between Raleigh and Durham? If you added two more morning trains and two evening ones to the current service it’s pretty much commuter rail. I just heard from friends who took the train to Durham then uber back and thought about this. Is there a big technical problem with having more of the same exact Carolinian types of trains the just do a Raleigh to Durham and back route that I am unaware of?
Edit: I meant the Piedmont not the Carolinian. And I am not suggesting adding full trips to Charlotte. Just adding more “Piedmont” trains between Raleigh and Durham.
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Does it come down to a capacity issue on the tracks?
Curious @orulz opinion on this, my thinking is to add proper, quality commuter service in Wake County with all the planned infill stops there’d have to be some state-run non-Amtrak service going on (perhaps like NJ/CT).
Else, there must be some other way for commuters to get cheaper fares with Amtrak b/c $7 per trip from Cary ain’t gonna cut it. And hope for no big delays coming all the way from CLT.
Also… how would Apex get service?
Obviously hourly-ish Piedmont trains would be amazing… just seems like it should be a separate (but concurrent) objective from an operations standpoint, though the required track work will obviously benefit both service patterns.
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Does it come down to a capacity issue on the tracks?
That’s another thing, I have to think trains coming from CLT that must double as a commuter service in Wake/Durham would necessitate a good bit of extra double tracking between Durham and GBO
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I am not on favor of letting Amtrack handle my beer runs much less a regional commuter. Let the NCDOT/NCRR handle it
The Metrolink Orange County Line morphed out of what was originally a single Amtrak rush hour round trip in the early 90’s. Once the Siemens cars are operational on the Northeast Corridor next year a lot of passenger cars can be freed up for a quick start local service.
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I mean NCDOT would probably have Amtrak run it. Also, Wikipedia lists these four Amtrak services as commuter rail:
Capitol Corridor: Auburn – Sacramento – Oakland – San Jose
Downeaster: Brunswick – Portland – Boston
Hartford Line: Springfield – New Haven
Keystone Service: Harrisburg–Philadelphia–New York City
I’d imagine that some of the city pairs on these routes are also frequent enough and fast enough to pull some commuter ridership:
Hiawatha: Chicago – Milwaukee
Northeast Regional: Boston/Springfield – New York – Washington –
Norfolk/Newport News/Roanoke
Pacific Surfliner: San Luis Obispo – Goleta – Los Angeles – San Diego
So it’s not like they haven’t done it before.
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I have a lot of thoughts on this, but my most basic opinion is that anything that moves planning, engineering, and managememt of rail capital projects out of the hands of GoTriangle, and into the hands of NCDOT, gives this a much higher chance of success.
This is a pivot in the direction of incrementalism, which has been NCDOT Rail’s MO since the beginning - and it’s worked well for them over the decades, with trains running, ridership booming, federal and (crucially) state funding still flowing, even when the GOP controls both the NC legislature and congress. Meanwhile, TTA / Triangle Transit / GoTriangle is 0-for-3 on their “big bang” high dollar capital projects that try to get it perfect on day one.
While it may be disappointing that this plan means we won’t wake up on January 1st 2030 with Swiss- or Japanese-level train service, at this point I far prefer a more certain shot at some, albeit smaller, improvement, instead of going for broke on a fourth moon shot.
Ultimately I would say there are four “tiers” of train service that are relevant to the NCRR. My definition of these tiers:
- Local (approximately 1~3mi between stations)
- Regional (3~10 mi)
- Intercity (10~50 mi)
- High Speed / Long Distance (50+)
While the projects abandoned in 2005 and 2020 were clearly tier 1, the Piedmont and Carolinian are Tier 3, and SEHSR starts creeping into Tier 4, it seems clear that what we are now discussing belongs to Tier 2.
However, I must point out that any work done to implement any tier of service, lowers the barriers to improving other tiers of service as well - so it’s a clear step in the right direction no matter what.
So, what would “Tier 2” service look like for our region? Well, if you look back, this has been studied before.
Ultimately, for the NCRR, it might look something like this:
(from this 2010 report.) Eventually, it could link between our region and the Triad in the west, and Selma/Goldsboro in the east - although a first phase could be something like Hillsborough or Mebane, to Garner or Clayton.
Ultimately there could be as many as 8 intermediate stops in the 25 miles between Raleigh and Durham, but for the first phase I would expect somewhere between 3 and 5, which would be funded by our local transit sales tax. Where might those stops be? My guess:
- NCSU (+)
- West Raleigh / Fairgrounds (=)
- Cary (+)
- Park West (-)
- Morrisville / McCrimmon (=)
- RTC/RTP/RDU (+)
- North RTP (-)
- East Durham/NCCU (=)
(+): high priority, (=): mid, (-): low
And for the S-line, like this:
(from this 2023 report.) Eventually stretching from Sanford to Henderson, but Apex to Wake Forest would be a good start.
I would expect about 5 stations between Raleigh and Wake Forest; the TOD study calls out:
- Midtown
- Spring Forest
- Gresham Lake
- Burlington Mill
- Old Forestville
As for rolling stock, NCDOT is planning to get new trains for intercity service, so grabbing the old Piedmont trains for this Regional service might make sense. They aren’t high performance trains, but this seems like reasonable incrementalism. ADA accommodation is a question mark, though; either mini-high platforms and manually deployed bridge plates, or installing wheelchair lifts in the baggage area of the NCDOT trains could do the trick.
As far as track infrastructure goes, federal funds are already committed to finish double-tracking the NCRR from Raleigh to the Durham County Line, as well as the S-line out to Wake Forest. There is a separate NCDOT project already in flight to upgrade more of the track in Durham County, near Ellis and Glover roads. But more work will be needed on the Durham County portion of the NCRR, as well as on the Apex leg of the S-line, and the Clayton leg of the NCRR.
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