Downtown hotels

thing about train stations and train tracks is you can’t just find a “spot” - you need a continuous corridor. In this case, it needs to enter downtown from the north, and exit to the west.

In a protracted, painful process culminating in about 2015, they finally decided on this route:

It took about a decade of analysis and study to get that route identified, through the environmental process, fully approved, ready to begin property acqusition, etc.

I understand that “developers gonna develop,” but finding a parcel to build a hotel, is multiple orders of magnitude easier than identifying and assembling a contiguous corridor for something like a rail line.

Building it underground would add billions to the cost, even given the extra $50+ million to acquire and tear down a just-completed hotel, that’s still a drop in the bucket compared to tunneling

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well then they should’ve started purchasing all this land they decided on in 2015 LMAO it’s really that simple. For instance; I just found a piece of land just north of downtown that I want to build a house on. I don’t own it, but I have decided that is where I will build my house, and so help me god if someone else buys that land I want to build my house on, I will be very upset and file a lawsuit or something but also no, I will not be purchasing it myself now to ensure I can build my house on it. Does that not sound silly as all getout? That’s basically the position USDOT/NCDOT is in, currently.

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So they decided on a route in 2015, but they have yet to purchase any property for it. What do they honestly think is going to happen with the land? Not real good planning on the government’s part.

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does it actually have to exit at the west end? isn’t raleigh the end of the line for the planned HSR so far?

I mean, you’re all completely correct. Our system sucks, state capacity is next to nil, this project sitting around for seven years is an obvious sign that things are badly broken. It’s definitely not fair (nor legal) to make the developer sit on this lot indefinitely while we get our shit together. This is a similar issue to what wrecked NCDOT’s budget for the past few years, as they faced possibly $BILLIONS in settlements over the MAP act. Corridor preservation through transportation and land use planning, is de facto condemnation without compensation. Cut and dry: it is unconstitutional.

But this high speed rail - it’s important infrastructure, for us, for the future of our city, our country. In the long run, whether it takes 10 years to get off the ground, or 20, or whatever, it’s important, and cheering enthusiastically as we throw it in the trash because a developer is dangling a shiny magenta hotel in our faces just … doesn’t sit right with me. “Our system doesn’t work well, so let’s just surrender to it and throw all our plans in the fire - they’re meaningless anyway” - I mean, I can see how some might give in to that line of thinking, but sorry - that’s far too cynical for my tastes.

I get not wanting to lose this hotel, downtown has a relative shortage of rooms, and this one actually does look pretty special. But does it have to be this hotel in this exact spot? This is one empty lot among hundreds of empty lots downtown, and dozens in Glenwood South. Would you hate it if, for example, the Moxy Hotel development moved to North Street across from Gramercy Apartments?

What I’d really like to see, is a diving catch: for somebody to step up and say “OK developer, let’s do a land swap” or “This hotel looks nice, but high speed rail, even if it’s over a decade away, is more important, so let’s start eminent domain proceedings.”

In my opinion this is a do-or-die thing, the window of opportunity is closing rapidly. Go ahead and buy the property for a few million, even if it means pulling money from some other project like the West Street Extension or Devereaux Meadows Park or whatever for a couple years.

City planning and urban development are a long game, not instant gratification. Let’s build this city right. Come on, now.

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Raleigh is supposed to be but one stop on the way from DC to Charlotte, Atlanta, etc. This is a high speed rail line that will tie the 100+ million people living on the US eastern seaboard together.

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There is such a thing called demolition. If the HSR project ever really happened, the property could be bought or condemned. It’s not like Marriott is building some monumental masterpiece of a structure there. Crazier things have happened.

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I just want some entity, probably the city, to put down $2m, or $10m or whatever fair market value is, to buy this lot. Use it as a food truck rodeo or something for now.

If high speed rail happens, then the HSR project will buy it from the city. If not, then the city can resell for a profit. If Mariott is scouting DTR/Glenwood South for a Moxy Hotel, they will have no trouble finding another location for it. Tell me, in this scenario, who loses?

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Not without a Hail Mary lawsuit that our hypothetical plaintiffs would be likely to win win. As Owen said:

Would NCDOT buy them (in effect, giving landowners some form of compensation)? Yes. But are they getting fair compensation, given the reason why they’re condemning that land in the first place? No, I don’t think so. Maybe a lawyer (which I am not) could argue that the state is buying property in a way that hoodwinks property owners, is making unduly profits off of the land, and/or manipulating the real estate market.

It’s because the state only buys property when they know an infrastructure project will happen. And for HSR right now, the state’s official position is that the project is on pause until we have the money to start building things.

That seems like an easily solvable problem until you remember that our state’s Department of Transportation has been particularly bad about how it funds itself and spends its money. They blame it on Covid, but we know they already had serious issues before the pandemic such as not having enough money in its accounts to pay for things that were already actively happening.

Is this really a medium-term win, though? It still seems like we’re just being shortsighted, once again, when we could easily hold our breath for a moment and think about the legacies that would outlive us.

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dont flame…im not a rail infrastructure expert. but can HSR operate on regular tracks? if so can HSR enter raleigh at regular train speeds on tracks where this hotel wouldn’t interfere with and still make extra travel time negligible?

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There is a final Environmental Impact Statement and signed Record of Decision for this project. Once the public benefit and lack of better alternatives has been established to this degree, property expropriation is an extremely simple matter - a well-worn legal path that proceeds quickly. The only thing missing is the compensation, and the only thing the property owner can do in court is dispute the price - and those disputes, called “reverse condemnation” lawsuits - take place after the condemnation is already complete.

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Problem is… it’s already been purchased - a bit too late for this to suddenly become an urgent issue lmao

If “whatever” = never, then I’d have to assume it’s the latter. Pigs will fly before the US in general ever gets serious about large scale public transportation like high speed rail.

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Thing about property, and items in general, is that they can be sold, and resold, and resold again… changing hands multiple times. Remember what happened at Cary
Town Center - a developer was just about to break ground, when Tim Sweeney and Epic Games came in and bought the property from them at the last minute. The government also has the power to force a sale to happen, when it’s in the public interest (such as an important infrastructure project.)

Also, AFAIK this property was never listed for sale on the open market.

If “surrender and embrace the dysfunction” is your cup of tea then be my guest. Seems that city and state government are both on board with this approach as well, so you’re in good company. Even there, everybody seems to be calling the bluff: figuring the Southeast High Speed Rail is not actually a serious proposal.

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I have flown before, and it’s ok. I prefer trains when possible

I think we’re getting into the weeds here. The city gets all kind of flak for letting a developer tear down some little abandoned building. I can’t imagine the outrage if they tried to seize and demolish a functioning new hotel to put a train track there. Half our country thinks trains are a joke already.

And no one is trying to just “surrender and embrace the dysfunction.” It’s just that we’re not all upset about a hotel being built on an empty piece of land because someday in the future someone might eventually want to put more train tracks on that exact spot. It’s not like any of us have approval or denial rights to this. We’re just talking about stuff that’s going on.

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There was a study, that took about 10 years to complete (they slow walked it; if they had moved faster it probably could have been done in 2 or 3) eventually concluding that this is the best, and perhaps the only acceptable place for those extra tracks to go. Can’t follow the S-line because of the grade crossings at West and Harrington. Can’t use Norfolk Southern’s right-of-way because railroads are immune to the state’s power of eminent domain. (It takes a literal act of congress to expropriate from railroads.)

The Biden admin allocated $66b to passenger rail, including $12b that must be used for network expansion outside of the Northeast Corridor. This is out of congress’s hands at this point; the money has been appropriated - now it’s only up to USDOT to allocate it.

Last time around (2008) NC was one of 7 states awarded a large grant. Of those, three (Wisconsin, Ohio, and Florida) rejected the money. Their money was reallocated to California, which then proceeded to blow out their budget, and (though under construction) is still trying to scrape the money together to make it into something actually useful. That leaves Washington, Illinois, Michigan, and North Carolina as the only ones actually running trains. Washington had that debacle where the first train carrying passengers on the Point Defiance Bypass derailed and killed passengers. Illinois built improvements but still hasn’t increased speeds as promised.

NC and Michigan alone managed to build everything promised, more or less on time and on budget, with no major controversies. Michigan raised speeds to 110mph; NC built a bunch of new double track and stations, and has had increased service and better reliability ever since. So of all the states in the entire country, we have a solid reputation.

Last year, the states of NC and Virginia got a $58m federal grant to complete preliminary engineering for the Raleigh to Richmond corridor. This is the only corridor in the country to receive such a grant. The S-line features prominently in Amtrak’s “Amtrak Connects” vision. CSX is implying that they are ready to sell the S-line. Virginia has already bought the inactive part of it. So USDOT is on board, Amtrak is on board, VA is on board, NC is on board, and even CSX is on board (though, critically, Norfolk Southern is not on board - hence the need for this property.) I’ve been watching this for two decades and the stars are aligning in a way they really haven’t, ever before, even in 2008 - meaning we are positioned really well to get a big chunk out of that $12b. I’m certainly not saying it’s a sure shot at this point, but it is probably the best shot we are going to have- perhaps for decades!

Our system seldom functions, and when it does (or tries to, anyway) it moves at a GLACIAL pace. Much slower than the pace of business and real estate. But it does appear to be moving. I really worry what may happen if we throw bumps in the road like this.

But, oh yeah, forget it, gimme the pretty magenta hotel now!

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I think what @GucciLittlePig was mainly trying to say is that… nobody on this internet discussion forum has any power or say over this whatsoever, so your ranting and raving is just kinda being lost on us when A: the land is currently vacant and unpleasant, and (again, currently) adds nothing to the city nor the pedestrian experience, and B: this very real hotel proposal (vs a completely “maybe/hopefully if the state/city/AND feds can get their shit together” proposal) would be a positive for the city and improve the pedestrian experience here in a much more immediate time frame. We’re not saying “we don’t want high speed rail” - we’re saying that it’s very unclear how likely we will actually see this high speed rail in our lifetimes and a concrete development proposal vs a hypothetical dream scenario is more immediately exciting, and thus, something for us to discuss here. To reiterate: nobody on this forum has any power to control this land in one way or another.

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I see plenty of ranting and raving on here over developments that are too short, too boring, too ugly, or do things like tear down Goodnight’s, when nobody on this forum has any control over that either. Don’t see how my ranting and raving (which, yes, I do suppose I am ranting and raving) is all that different. :man_shrugging:

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Fair enough! I guess I just wanted to make known that, while I can only speak definitively for myself, it’s not likely anyone on here is necessarily against high speed rail, in this location or otherwise, and our excitement over an imminent development proposal is just that - not a celebration of possibly losing this high speed rail corridor. It just feels rather unlikely any of this HSR talk will legitimately come to fruition anytime any of us on here will be able to even utilize it, so discussing an actual live development proposal is simply more exciting in the short term, and again, just something tangible to actually discuss! :slight_smile:

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Ideally, yes. But Norfolk Southern is notoriously selfish and protective of their own tracks to the point that our state didn’t think it’s reasonable to even try asking.

And in case anyone forgot, here’s the math for why HSR has to involve buying new land, thanks to that constraint.

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Case in point about infrastructure…
When my family moved to Raleigh in 1974, my parents bought a house that was promised to be near the future outer loop (540) for my dad’s commute to RTP. Well, it finally opened just in time for my dad to retire in the early 2000s, and that was for a road project that had wide support both locally and philosophically at the federal government level.

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