They’re also 8x our pop/size.
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Yes, that is why I push for more things in downtown ASAP. Cinema, bowling, plans for a future Red Hat Amp replacement IN Downtown. Central library, downtown arena, etc.
Ever wonder why gas station all get built next to each other? Because that actually generates business. Entertainment in Raleigh is diluted over dozens of new and old developments that retail can’t thrive.
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Is this Freudian slip, or are you confirming that Midtown is where the real energy is in Atlanta and that it usurped downtown? Even though it’s bisected by I85, Atlanta is generally more of a contiguous grid from downtown to midtown. We’ve talked about this before but that’s not the case and isn’t ever likely to be the case between downtown Raleigh and DTS.
What’s really great about downtown Raleigh is that nearly everyone who looks a map of it for the first time is going to easily find the Capitol Building and the “reason” for the city in the first place. How we think about the center of our city is in reference and in deference to it. It’s our central urban landmark that orients us in our urban experience. On the other hand, Georgia’s state capitol is literally sitting just north of a giant spaghetti interstate intersection and most people looking at a satellite image of the city would have a hard time finding it. To make matters worse the real energy in Atlanta is 2 miles north. I don’t want to see that happen to Raleigh.
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I feel like development is more likely to follow Wilmington than Saunders/McDowell once the city finalizes station area planning for the Southern BRT route. US-70 is gonna remain a major thoroughfare until NCDOT decides it isn’t (which, frankly, is decades away, if it ever happens at all). Wilmington is also NCDOT-managed, but it (like New Bern west of I-440) is listed as a secondary route, so I think the City is going to have a lot more flexibility in how that road is redesigned and utilized. It’s a rather forgotten aspect of the city currently, but it has the potential to be a vibrant urban corridor if they do it right.
Ultimately, though, I still agree with the sentiment: DTS is going to be its own thing for at least a decade. I’m also not sure that’s a bad thing. I’ve said this before, but this city lacks walkable urban hubs outside of downtown and North Hills. I think one of the best things we can do right now for the long-term growth of the city is identify and plan more of these. The beauty of DTS is that it’s a bit of a blank slate. Downtown’s development, for now, is going to continue to be a “parcel-by-parcel” endeavor, each with its own unique challenges. But these more forgotten corners of the city, like DTS or the terminus of the New Bern BRT, can be rezoned and gridded in a more consolidated effort (station area planning) in anticipation of future development.
Of course, I want downtown to continue to be the core of Raleigh, but I don’t think focusing on downtown alone is enough to mitigate sprawl. If the City wants to stop seeing newcomers choosing Apex or Wendell over Raleigh (no offense, @atl_transplant), they need to figure out ways to fit more people into neighborhoods beyond just downtown. With the BRT plan, these four (or potentially five) corridors all still converge in downtown, so I think it remains the central focal point in the long term, but I we’re growing at enough of a pace right now that we can support more than just two urban hubs without seeing one of them suffer.
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I feel Fayetteville street has such promise, it just needs the right concept(s) to bring it back to life. Back in the not too distant past when I was a State student I feel there were actual night life options that pulled people towards Fayetteville/Wilmington. Off the top of my head I remember Isaac Hunters (in its older spot), Zinda, The Oxford, Coglins, and of course the Big Easy. There’s probably some others I’m forgetting too.
A movie theater, bowling alley, or maybe a top golf-like concept bar offering soccer or even pickleball. Hopefully as more residential developments popping up around this area might encourage something like this to happen.
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I know I talk up Wendell but if I could find something of similar size with the walkability I have now and not break the bank I’m coming in town in a second 
I feel what you’re saying about Wilmington but the angle of the railroad track and length of bridge it requires, then the wetlands really kills all chance at actual development.
I’m higher than most on the DTS-DT morph because we’re already seeing rezonings in between. I think it’ll happen rather quickly.
If we can just get shared use paths, a speed limit reduction and more ped crossings I think Saunders will be fine.
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I think Wendell has so much potential with a solid transit connection to downtown Raleigh. Downtown Wendell has good bones, much like Cary and Apex, and Wendell Falls is being designed in a way that is super conducive to walkability (as you’ve pointed out before). I think regular, all-day transit service takes Wendell from a borderline exurb to a modern-day “streetcar suburb,” minus the streetcar. It essentially makes it another one of these “hubs” that I’m describing, just cheaper, less dense, and a bit further out from the city.
Good point, hadn’t considered the wetlands. And yeah, you might be right about the speed of infill between DTS and downtown. I mean we went from virtually nothing happening south of MLK to multiple projects in the pipeline in only a couple years.
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Once wake tech and our commercial district open we’re getting a circulator route between our 3 nodes as well as a East Wake circulator.
Also there’s a downtown Raleigh to wendell / Zebulon express route that I’ve been pleading with go triangle to add a stop to in Wendell Falls because they’d get more ridership.
I have to go back and watch the meeting since I missed it but apparently there’s some momentum behind taking a look at some type of rail service between Raleigh and Greenville with a stop in Wendell.
Overall it’s a great place, I just still prefer the city!
But tying back to DTS, I think this is what brings the visibility of Raleigh down to 40 which economically and viability wise is very important.
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Good call, I just put a comment on the Wake Bus Plan Update recommending exactly that!
But yes, back to DTS…
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I don’t disagree with this sentiment and I’ve already alluded to the NC State corridor stretching down Hillsborough being a more mature (and IMO better) opportunity because the bones are already there. This includes the Village District where there’s already a pretty high walk score and a ton of housing on its immediate periphery.
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Could put all the stadiums and arenas along Wilmington St. here to try to focus all the infrastructure improvements and energy into a common goal. And a commuter rail line stop at Hoke & S Blount as well.
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That would be… pretty freakin awesome.
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This aerial perfectly tells the story about why (IMO) this is not the direction to focus Raleigh’s core expansion. Develop it for sure, but I’m not convinced that this is downtown. If a rapidly densifying Village District isn’t considered downtown, how can this be? The immediate area is choked by major higher speed arteries, there’s a substantial amount of single family/suburban model homes playing defensive line, and there’s even a freaking cemetery sitting on land that could be a perfect money-shot development and “bridge” to downtown. There’s also nothing particularly walkable at all about this stretch from downtown to DTS.
While I do agree that Wilmington Street is the best connection to DTS by anything other than a car, its corridor is narrow and it needs substantial re-thinking to even begin to make it feel like a more urban contextual road like Hillsborough St.
For me, Downtown South is more Midtown South: walkability that you drive to.
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But if you’re a developer, where else can you find a comparable plot of land to build a neighborhood? And it’s also the closest point to downtown on a real freeway, so the stadium can avoid the traffic nightmare a true DTR one could become.
East DTR has some space, but doesn’t seem to have much energy behind it, especially if real gentrification concerns start to bubble up. The Shaw rumors could turn into something great, though.
To the west, can you imagine a real high rise anywhere along Hillsborough and/or Clark past St. Mary’s? The neighborhood would throw a fit. DC-lite seems the most likely future outcome (which is fine).
It’s not ideal, but this and the Dix edge stuff feels like the best we can really do.
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So I guess you just don’t like the name? Yea, its basically another North Hills and its downtown adjacent. I think the whole competing with other neighborhoods narrative is overblown. We literally can’t build housing fast enough. And office space is exploding in RTP - that’s the competition.
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I actually can imagine developers proposing taller buildings west of St. Mary’s. That said, all urban development doesn’t have to be high rise. Just look at Paris or lots of European cities for that matter. Heck, just look at Washington DC.
You are correct. Moving the arena here, or establishing a new stadium here will still result in nearly all people driving to it.
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Hate to tell you but… nearly all people are going to be driving to any stadium built anywhere. First, there just aren’t nearly enough people living in downtown proper who will walk to fill the 20,000 seats of a stadium. Second, fans will generally be coming from all over the place for games, anyway. Hurricanes fans that fill the stadium in West Raleigh don’t all currently come from downtown Raleigh.
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True, but being on a BRT line and Commuter Rail line could let people drive to remote park-and-rides and ride the rest of the way. Could even let the park and ride lots become tailgate spots.
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Agreed, I think a lot of people would do this if it was feasible. Most people hate parking for professional sporting events. It’s expensive and the traffic is terrible: it usually takes forever to get in and out. People like tailgating, sure, but I think they like pregaming at a neighboring bar just as much (which, by the way, is weatherproof, unlike tailgating).
You don’t ever hear people in cities like Boston or Chicago saying “ah man, I’m stoked to go to the Bruins game, but it sucks that we can’t tailgate beforehand.” No, they take the T to North Station, get blitzed at Sullivan’s, then go grab their seats. Even a fairly car-oriented region like Denver still manages to max out the light rail trains when the Broncos play. But people constantly complain about how difficult it is to get to PNC Arena during an event, how expensive it is to park, etc. I work in Wade Park, and a ton of people show up to Bru’s early just to pregame and get free parking, then walk under the pedestrian tunnel to go watch the Canes.
When you have that many people going to the same place at the same time, it just makes sense to try to fit more of them into the same vehicle, especially if that means that they don’t have to deal with traffic. Of course some will choose to drive, but many will choose not to when given the option.
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