Right? I mean, if we aren’t using the funds to build more the increase future funds, what are we actually doing?
Leverage the momentum!!!
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I think that a lot of people perceive Garner to start after one crosses under I40, but that’s not the case at all. Raleigh goes almost all the way to the 70/401 split.
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TBJ just posted an updated article with more information beyond just the stadium:
- a 20,000-seat soccer stadium located just inside the Beltline at South Saunders St.
- More than 1.5 million square feet of office space;
- Multiple hotels with more than 1,000 rooms collectively;
- 1,750 residential units; and
- 125,000 square feet of retail and restaurant space
https://www.bizjournals.com/triangle/news/2019/06/19/exclusive-details-inside-the-raleigh-soccer.html?iana=hpmvp_trig_news_headline
" Downtown Raleigh now has 3.9 million square feet of Class A office space, according to TBJ’s Space publication. If all the office space in the new complex were Class A, it would mark more than a 35 percent increase in Class A space for the downtown area. Meanwhile, hotel space in downtown Raleigh has long been an issue. The city currently has 1,266 hotel rooms downtown, according to the Greater Raleigh Convention and Visitors Bureau, and another 183 under construction. The soccer project would roughly double that inventory."
-wow
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I don’t agree that we should view Durham as the competiton. We should start to think of downtown Durham and downtown Raleigh as two distinct neighborhoods of one city in order to really be strong. A win for Durham is a win for Raleigh and vice versa.
But I definitely agree that stretching downtown south by a mile is a huge deal. This is actually better than North Hills, because this actually has a shot at becoming contiguous with downtown proper.
I would not have a problem if Fuller Heights and Caraleigh see some big changes in the end. From Dix to Cargill, connect the various grids together, zone it all for big mixed use development, and watch the fireworks!
Most of the houses are eventually going to be tear downs anyway (and there is little the city can do to stop that). If we are going to have the older homes torn down we might as well make it worthwhile.
Believe it or not, something that has always held Raleigh back is that we don’t have a downtown interstate. We might not like to admit it, and it actually makes DTR a more pleasant, human scale place to be, but it does hinder commercial development. This (rather than downtown-phobia) is a big reason why North Hills has sprouted so fast.
Now, instead of tearing up downtown to build an interstate through it, downtown is reaching out on its own to connect to the interstate. As much baggage as the term carries with it, I have to say it: this is downtown Raleigh’s manifest destiny.
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YES SIR!
So, With that article from TBJ, is there anything that can stop this project? it seems like there is not.
Thanks Mike.
When I say I feel like Malik knows more than he’s letting on, I’m talking about the leagues expansion plans.
No way Kane is on board with a $1.9B proposal on pure speculation (that’s my hope). At the end of the day, whatever stadium is built is going to be the anchor for this development. If it’s thriving and active, so to will be the area around it. If it’s not very active and not bringing in that many people then it hurts Kane.
This isn’t downtown proper and our transit is awful. No matter what goes here, its going to have to be good enough to pull people away from all the competition downtown. A 20k seat stadium with an MLS team playing in it would be a differentiator. A 20k seat stadium housing minor league soccer, not so much.
I think my point is. I really hope the city gives Kane the go-ahead on whatever he wants to do, but the tourism tax money for the stadium should be contingent on landing a franchise. I am 100% against building a stadium on spec (whether its soccer, or baseball or whatever).
Every failed stadium starts with a story of how it’s going to change the landscape of the city, bring in so much tax revenue and pay itself off.
That said, if I’m going to trust any developer in this city to pull this off, its going to be Kane.
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I’d be in favor of a condition on the $11M/year making it contingent on them being awarded an MLS team.
Let Malik pay for whatever stadium he wants to start with. 10K that you can expand, 20K from the start, it should be up to him and his team. If he gets MLS then Wake Co could contribute.
If you want to break it down further let the County give $4M/year for a general stadium and add $7M/year if they’re granted an MLS expansion team.
The County should know the occupants of a stadium before granting funds for its construction and maintenance. I don’t know why there couldn’t be conditions or contingencies.
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I’ll admit I still need to educate myself on exactly what projects are eligible for the ROPFB tax proceeds. I thought it was for arts/cultural/sports venues, but I could be wrong.
The $1.9B project is for an entirely new development project a al NH, part of which is a soccer stadium, right? If only sports/cultural venues are eligible for those funds, and we’re using the $1.9B investment figure as a reason they should have them, then that’s a little misleading, no?
Are we now going to make “every” community organization, business, etc. got through this same step? It would only be fair…imo!
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OberlinSouth. Kane & Malik are talking about developing a $2Billion massive real estate project that will have hotels, restaurants, offices, residences, all of which will more than cover the $11MM/annual investment by the County in the form of even greater hotel occupancy & meals taxes plus property taxes. The property taxes alone will be more than $11MM annually. The talk I hear about “well, if he doesn’t have an MLS team, we don’t give him the money or 'he should pay for the stadium himself…” screams a lack of understanding of the financial return the $2 Billion project will generate in return to the city & county. If they need $11MM/year to build a $2B real estate project that will yield $20MM/year in new tax revenue, let them have it!!! What alternative requests from other projects currently being pitched for those dollars can effectively guarantee a 100% ROI…It’s simple: “NONE”
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Thank you! Sheesh I was wondering if I was going crazy for how obvious this should be.
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Again, it’s not about the size of the investment justifying the ROPFB proceeds. It’s the fact that those tax proceeds are earmarked for arts/sports/cultural projects—and those that would be transformative. IMO, if that’s for MLS, then great, have at it. But for minor league soccer? No thanks.
Let’s say Bezos picked Raleigh and was going to invest $5B or whatever it was. In that scenario, should he get arts/sports/culture money, just because it’d be a huge investment?
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It also said this…
“money for the soccer complex was not part of the recommendation.”
I find that interesting…
If Bezos was building a $200 million stadium or what have you, he should get what he is entitled to without strings.
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Sounds like the development will get built with or without the stadium. If that’s the case, you can;t really make the argument that the rest of the development will make up for the stadium handout.
I’m not against giving them money for a stadium. I am against giving them money to build a stadium on spec.
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Ok, fair enough. If [insert billionaire] wants arts/sports/cultural-earmarked tax money to build a stadium for a minor league team, and justifies it to the county because he’s also building hotels/offices/condos, then I guess we’ll have to agree to disagree. I’d rather see that money go to PNC renovations, a DT arena, or some other big league project, even soccer…if that’s with an MLS bid in hand.
Yea, I saw that also, but I’m sure it’s difficult to ear-mark funds for a hypothetical project, considering this is his third location and second stadium attempt. He follows up with more at the bottom:
“Malik, however, said he believes public officials, including the City Council and Board of Commissioners, will support the project once they see the details. “When we come forward with all these details, there will be support from the county commissioners and the City Council,” he said.”
The part I found even more interesting is they are presenting this proposal to Local business leaders Monday June 24th. One day before the official press conference on June 25th. Sounds like they are still trying to gather as mush local help as possible:
“Malik, the chairman of North Carolina Football Club, and Kane, CEO of Kane Realty, plan to present the proposal on June 24 to a few local business leaders at The Dillon office building. The project will be officially unveiled at a press conference on June 25.”
Also this was a little concerning when they mention it being broken down in to multiple phases, so does the stadium come first? Then hope this becomes a destination that needs this much investment?
“Development of this gigantic project is most likely broken down in phases with Malik and Kane potentially partnering with other developers to take the lead on specific part of the complex.”
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@UncleJesse The overwhelming majority of economists believe that spending public money to subsidize the construction of sports stadiums does not provide good ROI, so you’re contending that the overwhelming majority of economists don’t have a basic understanding of economics, which is quite the hyperbolic hot take there.
“If public money isn’t allocated for the potential “billion-and-a-half-dollar” project, Malik said he and Kane would develop the land in another fashion,” per the N&O.
So if we don’t give them the money for soccer stadium, they’ll still build all the all other cool and profitable mixed-used development stuff, plus presumably build more cool stuff where the stadium would have gone. Seems okay to me. And bear in mind, they’re already getting a ton of tax subsidies from the federal government for this project, so this thing is definitely getting built, whether the city showers them with straight cash on top of that or not.
Anyhow, if NCFC breaks ground on 20,000-seat soccer-specific stadium, they’ll get an MLS franchise, end of discussion. MLS is just not in the business of letting perfectly good stadiums lie fallow. Now, how on earth NCFC would ever actually fill a 20,000-seat stadium is another question, since the team currently draws fewer than 5,000 spectators a game, but that’s not my problem.
I don’t think a Charlotte MLS franchise would be any impediment at all to a Raleigh MLS franchise. MLS isn’t like the NFL, MLB, NBA, or NHL, where lots of people watch the games on TV, and so team’s territorial TV rights are important. MLS games draw TV ratings about on par with the WNBA. It’s not like people in Charlotte are going to be watching an MLS team in Raleigh or vice versa, so you might as well put teams in both cities if you can. (But because the TV ratings are so low, it’s not like getting an MLS team would improve Raleigh’s national name recognition, at least not any more than getting a WNBA franchise would.)
MLS is probably going to expand to at least 36 teams eventually, because its core business of providing soccer-related entertainment is still not profitable, and the money it collects in expansion fees is what keeps the business afloat. I mean, it’ll be bad for the suckers at the bottom of the pyramid, the last ones to buy in and all, but I don’t think that’s … oh, wait, right we would be those suckers. Oops.
Anyway, $1.9 billion is a ton of money, and I am actually quite jazzed for Tuesday’s announcement, because I am really eager to hear about all the other cool and good stuff they’re planning to build here, like housing and retail and office space, all of which are things that would be really nice to have more of!
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That’s all I Care about. I’m out 
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What do the economists say about publicly funding children’s museums, art museums, and hockey arenas? I’m fine with however they disperse the funds but I don’t think cultural institutions in general generate a great ROI.
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