General Parking Discussion

Sure, of course suburban development was cheaper, because the city was where literally all the jobs and resources were, and the demand to be near the them was still high. Then, as people migrated away from urban centers and investment stopped, the demand flipped in favor of suburbs and urban property became cheap. Now, barring cities like St. Louis, it’s flipped again. So we’re not dealing with some expense inherent to urban development or some inherent affordability of suburbia. Consequently, I find the idea that our area has a lower cost of living because it’s suburban to be dubious. Had we developed earlier and created a larger urban footprint, who’s to say it wouldn’t still be an affordable place to live?

Cost is driven by demand, as we both agree, and demand is driven in part by scarcity, and scarcity in our case is driven by the fact that the suburbs ended the creation of new walkable urban grid… I know there are other factors involved, so someone please explain what I’m missing if this is a gross mischaracterization of the issue.

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That’s where most people would put the horse. :rofl:

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Really? Can’t tell if you’re just being funny or serious :grin: But there are some who always keep trying to put the horse before the cart.
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I guess I’m unsure what you are trying to get at. You agree people and capital in this country wanted suburbia for 5 or so decades. That checks with local development as the Triangle rose to prominence at this time in large part to a large suburban office park and culdesacs at an affordable price. So we are agreed!

Well except you seem to not want to agree. So you give a what if scenario where Raleigh developed in 1910. If we ignore the obvious (RTP couldn’t have got off the ground as is 40 years earlier) and just stick to the whimsical (something else could have grown downtown Raleigh!), history would have still struck with a vengeance. Namely people still would have fled to the suburbs and the health of our region would have depended on us capitalizing on that fact.

I think I get the premise (downtown now could have been larger if we had just done something a century ago). While true, it isn’t particularly helpful. And it does nothing to the actual fact that Raleigh’s growth the last few decades was on the strength of what happened OTB and not in. We can find a balance, but this “tunnel fee to Manhattan” some seem to envision making out of parking in DT seems a mistake to me. It should be a gradual heating of the water, lest the frog jumps out. Growth can stop on a dime if unseen consequences aren’t at least studied.

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What I’m getting at is that I’m not convinced that the cost of living has much to do with our city’s largely suburban footprint, and I’m still not convinced after this exchange. You made great points about the influence of the suburbs being tied to our region’s success, particularly here:

the Triangle rose to prominence at this time in large part to a large suburban office park and culdesacs at an affordable price.

and here:

history would have still struck with a vengeance. Namely people still would have fled to the suburbs and the health of our region would have depended on us capitalizing on that fact.

But I still don’t understand how that proves your claim here:

You mention cost of living as a dominant factor, while ignoring that historically that is coded for suburbia

Particularly since for the better part of the last few decades, suburban housing was more expensive in our region than it was in the historical core. I simply think we grew in an era where suburban development was the norm, and while you’ve convinced me that this helped our current success, I don’t see how it led to a lower cost of living compared to other cities. But back to the main topic:

Regarding your last paragraph about parking, I don’t think anyone’s proposed a “tunnel fee to Manhattan” or anything as drastic as what you’re implying. This entire discussion stemmed from @orulz stating that he’s okay with parking rates going up to incentivize transit via the reduction of public subsidies for parking, and others taking offense to the idea. The reforms being proposed in Raleigh are completely reasonable, and our movement away from free parking and unreasonable parking minimums has been gradual and should continue to be. Donald Shoup provides a great model:

To distill the 800 pages of my 2005 book The High Cost of Free Parking into three bullet points, I recommended three parking reforms that can improve cities, the economy, and the environment:

  1. Remove off-street parking requirements. Developers and businesses can then decide how many parking spaces to provide for their customers.
  2. Charge the right prices for on-street parking. The right prices are the lowest prices that will leave one or two open spaces on each block, so there will be no parking shortages. Prices will balance the demand and supply for on-street spaces.
  3. Spend the parking revenue to improve public services on the metered streets. If everybody sees their meter money at work, the new public services can make demand-based prices for on-street parking politically popular.

Each of these three policies supports the other two. Spending the meter revenue to improve neighborhood public services can create the necessary political support to charge the right prices for curb parking. If cities charge the right prices for curb parking to produce one or two open spaces on every block, no one can say there is a shortage of on-street parking. If there is no shortage of on-street parking, cities can then remove their off-street parking requirements. Finally, removing off-street parking requirements will increase the demand for on-street parking, increasing the revenue to pay for public services.

Assembling support for parking reform is like opening a combination lock: Each small turn of the dial seems to achieve nothing, but when everything is in place the lock opens. These three reforms can open the parking combination lock.

Some critics argue that removing an off-street parking requirement amounts to “social engineering” and a “war on cars.” Instead, off-street parking requirements are a socially engineered war for cars. Removing a requirement that restaurants provide 10 parking spaces per 1,000 square feet of floor area is no more a war on cars than removing a requirement that everyone must eat in restaurants 10 times a month would be a war on restaurants.

Also, the issue has already been studied extensively – it’s basically urban planning best practice at this point – but yes, we can study its specific impacts in Raleigh to confirm that it would have the same impact that it has in other cities.

Another quote:

UCLA professor Donald Shoup, the godfather of parking reform and a keynote speaker at CNU 27 in Louisville this coming June, predicted that 2019 would bring a sea-change in parking reform. Shoup cites a recent editorial by Bruce Belmore, international president of the Institute for Transportation Engineers, recommending that cities get rid of regulations requiring off-street parking.

John Anderson, an urbanist and a founder of the Incremental Development movement, posted a list this week on Public Square of 15 municipal reforms to promote small-scale, walkable development. At the top of the list was the elimination of off-street parking requirements.

The recommendation is not just for big cities. On Strong Towns , Aaron Qualls reports on the experience of Sandpoint, Idaho, (population 7,365) which eliminated minimum parking requirements in 2009. “Since that contentious decision by the Sandpoint City Council, millions have been invested downtown—projects that would not have been feasible, but for the elimination of parking requirements. Several jobs, building renovations, and expansions by local businesses were essentially made possible by adding a single line of code,” Qualls writes.

It really is that simple. The City of Buffalo, New York, eliminated minimum parking requirements throughout the city in 2017 with one sentence: “There are no provisions that establish a minimum number of off-street parking parking spaces for development.”

Qualls explains the motivation for city officials to act. “The 2009 approval of a 60,000 square foot, 3-story bank headquarters in the heart of downtown ended up requiring 218 parking spaces. Because only 110 were provided (which was plenty), the bank was subjected to in-lieu parking fees totaling over $700,000. Well, being bankers, they soon realized the cheaper alternative was to buy up adjacent properties and demolish the buildings for surface lots. Consequently, small businesses were evicted and the much-beloved downtown historic development pattern was diminished.”

In Sandpoint, Buffalo, Atlanta, San Diego, and many other cities it is now possible to build urban mixed-use buildings without constructing a huge parking lot that does not make sense economically. That means the area that would have been the parking lot is now available for more mixed-use development, filling a hole in the urban fabric. Too many cities have such holes that damage economic development, walkability, and the environment. Momentum in parking reform is a welcome trend.

Another interesting read is this interview, which discusses how Seattle and San Fransisco used data to help tailor their approach to parking reform. Of course this needs to be done with a balanced approach… I just think most people in this forum feel that the current balance is skewed in favor of parking and is overdue for a correction.

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Very accurate. If you live on a main street anywhere ITB, you’re at worst a 30-minute frequency bus ride away from downtown. The buses are pretty reliable, and pretty cheap. People still aren’t using them in mass quantities due to either 1) cheap, plentiful parking, 2) safety threats (real or imagined), and 3) saving a few minutes on either end of the commute. Item 2 is ingrained human behavior that is sometimes impossible to break, Item 3 should be helped by the Wake Transit Plan increased frequencies and BRT, that leaves Item 1.

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Actually you left out the most obvious reason… we love our cars and just don’t want to ride the bus period.

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I’m like 99% sure they’re trying to get wayyyy beyond that. Like not just leaving it at “cuz we dun wanna”, but actually trying to figure out the root causes of that in a way that you can create actual alternatives around.

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Good points, leave it up to the market. I am for that.
@TedF hit upon your greatest overlooked point, the convenience and attractiveness for transportation freedom. Americans, by and large, love transportation freedom.

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No one’s taking away their freedom though. They can have a car, and they can choose to use it instead of public transit – their choice simply shouldn’t be prioritized and subsidized in an urban environment at the expense of other things. I fully recognize that there are some people that drive and will always drive, and that’s fine. They probably won’t be deterred by parking reform. Parking reform should target others who are open to using transit but don’t because the scales of convenience haven’t yet tipped in its favor.

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I don’t care if anyone drives their car. Go ahead. I just don’t want to subsidize their parking or driving anymore.

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But you obviously want the car drivers to subsidize your ability to use mass transit. The vast amount of people drive cars. The government will always subsidize the opportunity to continue that for probably as long as we all live. Just like we all subsidize schools whether we have children or not. It is what it is. Besides I wonder how much income Raleigh earns from all their parking decks.

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I just liked the way the parking deck at The Dillon has flat floors In the parking pedestal. Then, if/when the time comes that we don’t need them for parking, they can be retrofitted.

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This whole discussion is a microcosm of the world today. ‘They’re coming for our cars’…
Taxation - in its best outcomes to build infratructure- subsidizes a direction for the common good. This discussion is really about how we should view transit investment as part of that greater good even if you’re not using it.
The world we’ve built is tipped towards cars and it’s a fraught investment wrapped in individualist freedom, capitalism, consumption and convenience. Full stop. I love my car.
Transit is really about alternates of choice for how you move about. If we could do it smartly, we create a buffer for the influx of people still coming and for the increasing density nodes relative to our market growth. It won’t solve all our ills but it’s a lever we should try to have in place to pull.
Parking is about convenience and expectation and the truth here is that as a market we’ve outgrown the expectations around parking from 5 years ago and TONS of us that live outside the most dense areas of town need to embrace the change needed on that front for our market to make the best choices.

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This is not true based on my experience going back to the late 1980s and my first home purchase. As a recent architecture graduate from State, I had been living ITB and wanted to stay living near downtown with my first purchase. My budget was in the mid to high $50,000s. I looked and looked around Five Points, Mordecai, Oakwood, Glascock, etc., and couldn’t find anything that was doable, and I was looking at SFHs that were as small as 800 ft2. While I could have purchased these homes, I couldn’t afford to make them habitable. Most needed $10K+ worth of investment immediately. They lacked things like all appliances, air conditioning, etc. Many had roofs that leaked, bad foundations, etc. It just wasn’t viable. I even looked at the condos at Barton Place that were new at the time. For comparison, the price of a condo at Barton Place (it’s at the bottom of the Five Points area next to Wade Ave) was comparable to what I ended up buying, but what you got was a lot less. For the price of my new 1000 square foot 2 bed condo on Duraleigh, I could have gotten a 672 square foot, 1 bed condo at Barton Place. I really wanted to make the Barton Place condo work for me, but I just couldn’t make that tiny square footage work on the two floors. Yes, two floors! You can imagine how tiny the rooms have to be to get less than 700 ft2 on two floors. Heck, just the circulation and the stair took up an inordinate amount of space.
So, no, the suburbs weren’t necessarily more expensive in decades past. That presumption is most certainly true for some areas of the city where the gentrification is happening now, but most ITB and close-in development was actually higher, and this was more than 30 years ago.

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Well you’d know better than me, because I wasn’t around back then! :slight_smile:

All I have to go off is similar anecdotes from family friends that bought in the 70s, and sometimes I’ll see listings with sales history that is astounding. Perhaps they’d qualify as gentrifying areas though.

My family moved to Raleigh in the early 70s, and like nearly everyone who came to Raleigh at that time, we moved to the suburban part of the city. Frankly, those are the only places that the realtors took the transferred residents. I do recall that my parents were able to get a new house in North Ridge (not a huge one) for the same price that they’d be able to get a used one in North Hills, so there’s that.
Essentially, the realtors only showed my parents homes in Cary, NW Raleigh and N Raleigh. For us, this meant essentially MacGregor Downs, Brookhaven, Hickory Hills, Quail Hollow, Coachman’s Trail, Springdale, and North Ridge. My parents quickly crossed off MacGregor Downs because it was so far away and too expensive. They quickly zeroed in on N. Raleigh. I can’t say that realtors purposeful segregated the “Yankees” into their own high-end ghettos or not, but it’s not hard to imagine that being the case looking back. Essentially, most of Raleigh’s suburban development in those early years of the city’s boom was geared toward IBM buyers from the north. Life revolved around all of the new suburban amenities like Crabtree, North Hills, and planned communities, and the price point largely reflected what the buyers could afford from New York. Raleigh was not a bargain for my parents, and they were sorely disappointed that they couldn’t buy more house than they previously had. They ended up spending slightly more $/ft2 for their house in Raleigh than they had sold their house for in the Bay Area. They wanted to move up from a 4 bedroom house that they had in California to a 5 bedroom house, but were unable to do so.

In any case, and tying this back to the topic of this thread, all of this post RTP establishment development was certainly based on the car as it was across the country at that time. The street we moved to didn’t have a sidewalk, and everything was much further apart than it was in California. I was introduced to the big yellow school bus for the first time since my previous elementary school was just 2 blocks away. Using ones car became a necessity and everything and everywhere accommodated your car. Free access became a de facto birthright. We are essentially still living that “birthright” today.

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It has always been my understanding that Raleigh’s Parking program is run like a non-profit. Therefore, it operates only to break even. They may make more money but then it goes I to maintenance.

On street parking is a negligible percentage of the revenue so that is why they change the hours/times to try and create turnover, whatever helps businesses the most.

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I guess that is the point I was trying to make. Is Raleigh really subsidizing parking for us car drivers if it is a break even proposition? Granted they put up front money to build the decks and they provide the service of parking, but are they subsidizing it? It seems not. This article shows that they started charging for after hours and weekend parking to help pay for cleaning the decks.

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My guess is that in order to answer your question, we would need to know what DTR looks like if we had a free market approach to parking. Would rates be even higher, about the same, or lower.

With the city owning a good chunk of the parking inventory, they have a pretty big impact on the DTR parking “economy.” It’s my perspective that because the city works to just break even, it therefore keeps prices lower. If this is true, then yes, we are subsidizing parking.

You could also argue that if the downtown parking spaces are actually propped up by the revenue made by those that pay for a monthly rate, then free parking on weekends is what those people are subsidizing.

A few ways to look at this one, I think.

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