It’s something like 170 miles via the NCRR from Raleigh to Charlotte which means you need average speeds north of 80 for 2 hour trip times. Even given nonstop (or one-stop; IMO no trains on the NCRR should ever skip Greensboro), that’s a tall order. There are quite a few curves on the NCRR that are impractical to straighten and speed up, so you have to probably go 125mph where the track is straight enough. Chargers can do that, but the tracks can’t accommodate it right now. Not to mention that speeds like that on tracks shared with freight also aren’t tremendously practical, so you’d probably wind up putting in several ~20 mile segments of dedicated, passenger-only 3rd track. Also not to mention that speeds like that require grade separation. All of this is quite possible, however, if grants like the $1b given to the S-line are on the table.
1 hour trip times necessitate a direct world class HSR route to achieve. Possible, but ten-plus billion dollars.
Completely agree, adding new locomotives would only be one part of a much bigger puzzle. I also see the value in keeping Greensboro, considering it’s the 3rd busiest station in the state.
NCDOT received a $77 million grant in 2019 and then another $80 million one in 2020 to buy new trains. So the refurb equipment’s days are numbered, at least on the Piedmont. (They might keep it around for the service to Wilmington/Fayetteville/Asheville).
What type of trains they will order is another matter. I would assume that the contract will go to Siemens but I’m not sure. Ordering the same dual-mode trains as Amtrak might be on the table, but I would more likely anticipate a diesel-only order, given that electrification seems a long way off - unless something changes.
I thought that money was being used to refurbish. I’m glad to hear it’s actually for new equipment. I wonder if the state will get diesel-electric since the Carolinian runs on an electrified route between DC and NYC.
Who knows when it comes to the new routes, they could be many years away for all we know.
The Carolinian will continue to be run with Amtrak-owned equipment. As far as I know, there will continue to be a separate fleet owned by NCDOT for the Piedmont.
The reasons I could see for them to go dual-mode for that order:
Economies of scale, basically claiming some of the unexercised options from the Amtrak order. So far Amtrak has ordered 83 Siemens Airo trains and has options for 120 more. It is almost certainly cheaper to tack a few more identical sets onto that order, than to make a new order for bespoke trains.
S-line. It’s possible (perhaps even likely) that these new Piedmont corridor trains will also be used for initial S-line service once that route is complete. In that case, the trains will need to be able to run through onto the NEC.
“Secret” electrification plans. This would mean that NCDOT has been planning to electrify some or all of the corridor (NCRR and/or S-line) but haven’t been talking about it, perhaps to avoid pissing off the freight RRs. I find this unlikely.
DIRECT ROUTE!!! DIRECT ROUTE!!!**
You have done a wonderful job explaining why this is unlikely, and even not preferable, in the near-long term.
But like the N&O block, I refuse to give up hope.
This is a super interesting question. I am skeptical that Brightline will be north of DC anytime soon, just because the existing infrastructure is already tapped out and the federal government is investing hundreds of billions for Amtrak’s benefit, and Amtrak owns the tracks up there. Brightline is already working with the feds out west to build a train from Vegas to LA, and I think they are likely focusing on routes that don’t have existing service. It doesn’t seem like they’re trying to compete directly with Amtrak, but that might be wrong. I think they’re looking for underserved corridors where they can be the only real players. But, that’s just speculation on my part.
I’m taking the train (Carolinian) down to Charlotte this evening from Raleigh for work. It was originally supposed to arrive in Raleigh at 5:30pm but was since been delayed to 7:15 or later. Pretty frustrating as I’ll be arriving in Charlotte close to 11:00pm now.
This is purely anecdotal but there needs to be more done to increase the reliability of Amtrak’s service. I love passenger rail and something like this isn’t going to turn me into some anti-train Nimby, but for people who are more on the fence about taking the train all it takes is one bad experience to convince them it isn’t worth it.
Has anybody else here experienced similar delays with Amtrak in NC?
I definitely have before, especially with the Carolinian and Silver Star which both come from New York. Fortunately, the Carolinian (or its successor) should become much more timely once the S-Line opens, as I suspect the NC/VA segments in between the NEC and NCRR are the cause of most of the delays. Well, except maybe not this week due to the crazy weather. You might have been screwed regardless.
But in general I do find the Piedmonts to be quite timely, and I think the data supports that. But, of course, the 5:30pm departure time slot for the Carolinian is hard to avoid sometimes.
I have ridden the Piedmont and Carolinian in state for about a dozen or so round trips. Every time except one, I was somewhere between on time and 30 minutes late. (I always make a point to never catch the southbound Carolinian from Raleigh, which is often late by the time it reaches Raleigh.) The one other time, I was delayed nearly 4 hours because the train broke down somewhere east of Burlington. This was around 2004.
Not sure about delays, but once back in my RVA days, I took the train from Richmond to Greensboro then my mom picked me up and drove another 1 1/2 hours to Mount Airy for a weekend trip home. The train took nearly 7 hours (plus another 1 1/2) to get to my destination. The average drive from Richmond to Mount Airy was 4 1/2 hours. So yeah. I added 4 hours to my travel time to take the train home for the weekend. My wife drove down the next day (we didn’t want to have 2 cars in NC, hence why I took the train b/c I came down early) and we drove back to VA together. As of then, it was a “one and done” experience until there are significant improvements. That was 16+ years ago. I DO hope to take the train in the future. We frequently talk about taking the train to DC for a long weekend with the kids at some point.
Your experience on the Carolinian is unfortunately common. It has some of the worst on-time performance of any state-supported route. In 2022 (the most recent data I could find) it was only on-time 63% (compared with 72% for the Piedmont).
Fortunately, Virginia is investing heavily in rail infrastructure between DC and Richmond, and the new S-line will be owned by the states and I think it’s also going to be passenger-only (maybe @orulz can confirm this for us). A sizable chunk of the delays is due to freight rail, and so the solution is basically to build more rail and allow passenger trains to operate on different tracks than the freight tracks when needed.
I assume some of the NC delays are also due to old equipment and possibly even some at-grade crossings.
More good news, about a month ago the Feds announced the selections for the Corridor ID program and Charlotte to DC (i.e. the Carolinian south of DC) was chosen for an enhancement grant. This will allow the state to study potential improvements along the route and apply for more money in the future.
So, things are moving in the right direction, but it’s obviously quite slow. And you’re absolutely right, reliability is likely the most important thing when it comes to train travel. Speed gets the attention, but who cares how fast it is if it’s delayed for hours?
The train to DC:
-Takes quite a bit longer than driving or flying in the best case
-Can experience delays, but so can driving or flying
-Takes up a full work day, with 2 closely spaced AM northbound trains, whereas there are more flights and infinite flexibility with driving
-Is so much more relaxing and has better scenery than either other option
All of this would be fine for business travel, except there are long stretches out in the countryside with no mobile data service (and Amtrak’s wifi doesn’t have access either.) This turns it from taking a full workday, into basically losing a full workday, which makes it rather impractical for business travel.
NC By Train has issued a press release with 2023 ridership numbers. Main point here:
The state’s intercity passenger rail service carried over 641,000 passengers in 2023, 23% higher than the record set in 2022 with 522,000 passengers.
23% increase in ridership with the addition of the 5th trip only halfway through the year. Will be interested to see how 2022 compares to this year when we have a full years data of 5 trips.
Is there any chance we could someday see a new line running across the south of the state? I feel like something like this could really improve the connectivity of our passenger rail network.
It does seem like a pretty obvious route, and for Charlotte-Wilmington trips could cut a lot of time off the trip through Greensboro and Raleigh (once Raleigh-Wilmington service is restored), although the route would likely look a little different from what you drew due to the location of existing tracks closer to the SC border. The armchair planner in me would propose something along the lines of this, which would make that connection while providing or enhancing service at 5-7 cities:
Hamlet (connection to existing Silver Star service)
Laurinburg
Pembroke (college town, could add a stop on the existing Palmetto and/or Silver Meteor service)
Lumberton (only about 11 miles from Pembroke)
There is a large gap in the sparsely-populated area between Lumberton and Wilmington - perhaps Bladenboro or Leland/Navassa could be considered for a station location.
