I made it in Microsoft 3D Paint. Quick and easy Bézier curves. That, and a screen grab from Google Maps.
The flying junction graphic was from Wikipedia.
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I don’t know why I click on the train talk threads. Google needs a train talk translator. I have no idea how you people acquire this much knowledge.
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I grew up in Fort Madison, Iowa. So, not only was it on the banks of Mississippi River with a ton of river barge traffic, it was also was the point where the Santa Fe crosses the river. And, there was a major repair shop complex in town as well. Heck, even my church I grew up in was Sante Fe United Methodist, and it was adorned with a modified company logo outside the sanctuary.
So, I got hooked on trains a very long time ago. And, if I hadn’t gone into medicine, I probably would have been a civil engineer.
The built environment fascinates me. So, when I’m in New York, I’m always sticking my nose in some building or transport project.
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This is true; looking at trends in the past year to inform a thing to last for decades is totally the definition of being short-sighted. If I remember right, I think I was only trying to show that a thought experiment for possible future demand could make the idea of a Raleigh-Fuquay rail service not sound outright insane. Besides, MPO data tend to only look at existing commute/travel connections; they’re biased towards transit links that (are perceived to) already exist, so I don’t think it’s the most useful information in the world to help you think ahead of the curve.
To be fair though, my day job involves signal processing on medical-related data. As someone whose job could change people’s lives if they connect too many dots that they shouldn’t, I’m not a huge fan of extrapolating from decades-old data. So I think the long-range effects of certain things like recent biotech investments, Tea Party Republicans, or Silicon Valley becoming a dumpster fire (among lots of other things) aren’t reflected in MPO data, simply because the time lag hasn’t caught up yet.
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I think you just gotta keep learning and fake it 'til ya make it. If you commit yourself to a topic for a night, lean into your curiosity and ask “why/wtf does this even mean”, and keep following Wikipedia links until you start circling around the same First Principles, I think you’ll start seeing a glimpse of where we’re all coming from.
Real talk, though: that’s actually how I’m getting through grad school right now, and is also the only way I can keep up with (and, if I care enough and/or have enough coffee, fact-check) several of the train or real estate-related threads here.
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thankyou for posting the report… this took awhile to absorb (b/c I’m also not a train guy) but starting to understand control points, leads, station tracks, etc. I think this report bulsters the idea @orulz made earlier in this thread. The city should buy the NS Line from southern junction control point north of the wye to some point south (preferrably south of I440). And build a bypass that follows the eastern leg of the wye on to the H Line and reconnecting with the NS Line. And the speed is already slow, per this document, so maybe a few more curves won’t matter.
I really believe this is a brilliant idea that will accrue a great deal to the public. I like the idea of a rails-to-trails project connecting DT to Dix. How do we make this happen? What’s step one?
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You mean this suggestion from @orulz back in 2018?
If you were dead set on having a Raleigh-Fuquay rail connection, then yeah I agree, this would be a nice and critical part to making such a train line work well. But that’s not the only place you’d be struggling with super-slow (and probably-low-use) service. You’re not working with just “a few more curves”, but the point of that memo is that you need to double-track, straighten out, and upgrade so much more of that route.
Especially when you have another okay route where that much extra work won’t be necessary.
I don’t want to jump to conclusions since this study is still under way, but if it turns out that a Fuquay/Lillington route isn’t worth pursuing, then I don’t see much of a reason to care for a Dix Park bypass. …not because that wouldn’t be cool, but because you can’t defend pouring in the millions of dollars that you’d need for it.
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I am referring to that post. But I’m not arguing for commuter rail service. I’m arguing that a portion of that line be bought (which means NS has to sell it!) and extend the greenway network and extend the biking network. At the last city council meeting, a number of speakers talked about biking across 440 on Lake Wheeler and how its a harrowing experience. Yes, it would cost millions. But it also buys a lot of options for connections that support non-vehicular forms of travel.
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Yep, that was me. I don’t know who posted/edited this video on YouTube, but it starts right were my comments begin.
The point is that there are lots of folks who live in the neighborhoods just south of I-40 and there are lots of places where people like to go just on the other side of I-40 (Dix, Centennial, Farmer’s Market, Walnut Creek Greenway) but the level of danger/stress in crossing the 400 ft bridge over I-40 is what keeps most people from biking from where they live to these destinations.
I’m meeting with city staff in the coming weeks to discuss this as well.
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If we want this to happen in what seems like it would be the easiest way (which I illustrated above: using the existing grade separation under Hammond Road) then it has to get moving right now. The land west of South Saunders and south of I-40 is owned by the Kane-Malik downtown south partnership and this would absolutely have to be accommodated in their master plan.
It could be a win-win, because:
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They could get a connection to Lake Wheeler Road for their development, by modifying the railroad route and extending Smith Reno Road. This becomes easier if the RR is being relocated anyway.
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They gain a fantastic rail-trail greenway to Walnut Creek and on to Dix Park, which would be an awesome amenity for the development (as well as the existing neighborhoods south of I-40)
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They could leave space for an eventual commuter rail station. Although the passenger trains along this line all the way to Fayetteville are unlikely to ever make sense, commuter trains to Fuquay-Varina probably will at some point.
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It wouldn’t take up too much land, and the RR alignment would be elevated above ground level by 30’ and so could be made to integrate with whatever street grid Kane wants to build by putting in bridges along the alignment. RR embankments don’t have to be especially intrusive, either - Look at the NS line along West Street, for example. Development can fill in around it, causing it to become just another part of the landscape.
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The embankment for a RR line would be a convenient place to dispose of any extra fill dirt from leveling out the ground for this development. Conversely, the need to level out this sloping property to simplify development provides a convenient source of fill dirt for the rather extensive railroad embankment that would be needed.
@Brian maybe you could mention this idea when you meet with city staff?? 
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And let’s not forget that there are other options to consider, too!
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I will definitely bring this up.
I did a walking tour of Dix Park in Feb 2019 and our guide - Kate Pearce (I think) - said that the City had small, medium, and large asks put together in the event there was an opportunity to work with Norfolk Southern on re-routing their RR through Dix. I’ll ask if there’s been any movement on this front.
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Great Googly Moogly!!
That Belt Line Railroad would ditch the diamonds at CP Boylan opening up a huuuge amount of real estate in the wye!! Genius.
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The yellow line (alternative 2 on that map) is the one that I think is the simplest and has the best shot at working.
It requires engaging Kane/Malik very soon to get them on board.
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I may have been on that tour as well. Did somebody bring Krispy Kreme donuts on your tour? 
The yellow route has a roughly 1% uphill grade from east to west, climbing about 65’, from an elevation of 240’ under Hammond Road, to 305’ next to Norfolk Avenue, over a distance of 6500’. Curves are roughly 5 degree, 1100’ radius, which according to standard US railroad practices, could accommodate operations at 40mph with run-of-the Mill superelevation of 3", and unbalance of a further 3".
This is easily in line with other curves, grades, and speeds on the line - so it wouldn’t impose any constraints that don’t already exist.
The route would pass under South Wilmington at an elevation of 258’, where the road is currently at 270’. Conservatively you need about 30’ of grade difference for a road over a railroad to accommodate double stack freight, future electrification, and a 6’ deep substructure for the road. So South Wilmington would have to be raised by 18’, which (given the industrial context) would not be controversial. Cutting the clearance requirement by leaving out future electrification and/or double-stack freight could save money and reduce impacts. But even the most strenuous of requirements that the RR could impose can be easily accommodated.
The route would easily clear South Saunders, at an elevation of 276’ where the road has an elevation of 240’, which is 36’ of clearance- where 25’ is about what is needed for the simplest type of span, a ballasted deck steel beam girder bridge with 16’-17’ of clearance below. Incidentally 276’ is the same elevation as the I-40 bridge over South Saunders, so it would fit right in.
There would be a few structure impacts, including 8 houses along Granite Street, Marble Street, and Norfolk Avenue, plus two commercial buildings and part of a self storage complex on South Wilmington. Beyond that, it would take a small corner of the Sam’s Club parking lot, and require the 40/Saunders interchange to be reconfigured (probably to a diamond or DDI.) It has a big impact on the Kane/Malik land but since that isn’t developed and (as far as I know) no master plan has been drawn up yet, there is probably a (closing) window of opportunity to make this happen.
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Yeah, I think you guys were there.
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If they went the green route, and bridge trail to Ileagnes Rd would provide very bike-friend route pretty far south.
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What’s old is new again. The proposed Raleigh Belt Line from 1913.
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