Southpoint is definitely a better mall, but everything there closes at 7 p.m. Sorry if you live in Raleigh and need something there after work; you’d better get there quickly!
why does Southpoint close early crime concerns?
I can see Fenton going the way of TTC, if some money isn’t pumped into the surrounding area over the next decade. Right now Fenton is the shiny new object, but the area around it doesn’t really scream luxury.
Running behind Fenton is a trailer park and then up the road, Farm Gate Rd is a fairly rundown area leading up to Buck Jones Rd. Yet another dumpy area. Basically any direction you go within a 2 mile radius of Fenton is less than desirable for a development that prides itself on catering to a more upscale demographic.
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I’m not sure, but probably.
Also went to North Hills the other day. This is obviously is the best retail center in Wake County and yet the anchor tenants are only Target, the movie theater, and the Harris Teeter and I guess the RH store now. A mini Saks would do great here. Really like how NHID is turning out with the Makers Alley and other new retail.
In terms of Fenton going the way of TTC not going to happen as Cary demographics are off the chart and its location right off I-40.
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Cary Towne Center just lightly cleared its throat.
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That was an enclosed mall, Fenton is outside lifestyle center with lots of residential, office along with retail. They are not the same. Why does North Hills thrive as a mixed use center along with retail while Triangle Town Center is dying on the vine?
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Because TTC is located in a $hitty area, while North Hills is surrounded by multi-million dollar homes.
To be fair, the general North Hills area used to be modest/middle class neighborhoods built in the fifties & sixties and flanking the original North Hills shopping center. The ITB part was always a few steps above though.
The multimillion dollar homes (north of the Beltline) are primarily there now because of the redevelopment. The original modest homes were built on pretty large lots that can now accommodate 5000+ SF homes. Of course it doesn’t hurt that this area is also immediately accessible to 440 and a quick drive to downtown, etc. TTC can’t mimic that enviable location, proximity, and context.
Lastly, I think that Kane pivoting from a mall to an outdoor center was a move that has paid huge dividends for him and the property owners in its immediate surrounds.
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True, but the two locations couldn’t be more different. One neighborhood is in the middle of town and regardless of it having modest middle class homes, it’s always been a desirable area. The other is located in a poorly planned part of town that has never been a destination for people that know and live in Raleigh.
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In my updated post (before your reply), I mention that TTC can’t mimic North Hills context. I think that we agree here.
The TTC location has always been the worst STROAD context in the city of Raleigh. It’s a huge hurdle to overcome because Capital’s gravitational pull is far stronger than any single large development that one could dump onto Capital Blvd. So, what the market has learned is that the way to “improve” Capital Boulevard is to just make your big box center/car dealership/fast food outbuilding/budget motel/etc., just a little bit nicer than the ones that already exist. It’s NOT a place to drop a luxury mall. That said, I’ve often wondered if the mall would have been more successful had it been located just north of 540 instead of just south.
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(per household income)
The more apt comparison is Southpoint and TTC. They opened at the same time, have a similar mix / ratio of indoor and outdoor shopping, and while (to my eye) TTC does looks worse for income demographics, Southpoint isn’t that much better, and yet is doing much better as a mall, in spite of what strikes me as a comparable reputation for crime.
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I think Southpoint’s draw is that it is the main mall not just for Durham but also for many of the Chapel Hill students. My girlfriend, who grew up in West Cary and went to UNC, worked and shopped regularly at Southpoint. She had actually only been to Crabtree a handful of times and still has never been to TTC. Southpoint was a nice upgrade to the dying Cary Town Center and Northgate Mall for those in Durham Co and western Wake.
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In my previous post, I speculate the impact of TTC’s success based on its location south of 540 instead of north. In the case of Southpoint, I suppose that one can speculate the opposite.
What might have been if TTC was placed in the NW quadrant of the Capital/540 junction instead of the SE quadrant? We’ll never know, but it’s interesting to think about.
As for Southpoint’s success, I think it’s important to understand that the western side of the Triangle doesn’t have much competition. Chapel Hill has a tiny mall and the two other malls in Durham were killed off by Southpoint, with South Square literally closing because Southpoint opened, while Northgate suffered a longer slow decline. On the other hand, Crabtree didn’t suffer because of TTC (largely due to location IMO), and Kane started his redevelopment of North Hills shortly after TTC opened. These two centers didn’t succumb to the new kid in town. While Cary Towne Centre did eventually die, I think it had more to do with Southpoint than anything that was happening in Raleigh.
BTW, your green/yellow/orange map means what exactly? Is that HH income?
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im in roanoke va….a mall in the south of town, Tanglewood Mall, like many had its issues. a ymca at one of the empty anchorrs is there now, and a dominant medcial group in town placed pediatric medical and dentristry offices at the other empy anchor there…..and since, a panda express, a blaze pizza chain and a jersey mikes have been built in the parking lot. still has a tj max there i think as well. kinda nice now
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Streets of Southpoint is the de facto mall of choice for the affluent Chapel Hillians and south Durham residents not to mention those from upper Chatham County. Heck my cousin from Fuquay goes to Southpoint as she likes that mall the best.
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Southpoint is the best mall in the Triangle. Crabtree is fine because it’s close to me and I have a Raleigh bias. I never go to Southpoint and I rarely go to Crabtree. I don’t think I’m alone in this
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FWIW my teenager who is old enough to get dropped off at a mall with friends but not old enough to drive yet prefers Southpoint.
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My $.02 (I guess probably more $.10 with inflation). TTC has opportunity. While it has been on a downhill trend, there are a lot more housing units both near TTC and north of 540 now than there has been in the past. I’m not sure why it hasn’t been able to get stores, but they should really be offering good discounts to pull in some good stores. The mall definitely needs some remodeling.
I prefer Crabtree over North Hills for shopping. Crabtree has more stores that I’d shop at. If you’re a boutique person, then I guess North Hills makes sense. I’m a poor guy who doesn’t want to spend $200 on jeans at Peter Millar or a button up shirt. North Hills is more of an actual work, play, live place than Crabtree for sure.
I like SouthPoint’s outdoor area. It’s just too far for me.
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I echo others that TTC could adapt more to local demographics. There is a brand new Nordstrom Rack (outlet) across the street that’s doing well. The Saks could switch to an “Saks Off 5th”, their outlet, and attract shoppers. We used to have one in Morrisville, for those of you old enough to remember—the outlet mall that was near RDU. One could make the argument that TTC switching to an Outlet Mall format could work better. Get Macy’s and Belk to do the same and voila.
The population is there—you just hafta adapt to the demographics. It’s not a “luxury department store” area by no means.
As someone mentioned, the amount of housing nearby has definitely surged—but it’s mostly middle class.
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