Crabtree has enough cachet, and competent management, so it should be fine for the foreseeable future. Plus it doesn’t have to compete with Cary Towne Center anymore which had several of the same anchors. But there was a time not that long ago when Eastland Mall in Charlotte was thought to be basically untouchable, and it does not exist anymore, so I don’t think Crabtree is completely immortal.
The next decade+ will be interesting to watch. If the North Hills effect reaches to Crabtree (high end apartments, lots of SFH teardowns/rebuilds, etc) then Crabtree will be good to go for a long time. But we have seen a similar situation in SouthPark where an increasingly desirable and expensive residential buffer was built around it at the expense of the Eastland area…while the dynamics are a little different between Crabtree and NH and I don’t anticipate Crabtree suffering from the same struggles as Eastland, I don’t think it’s entirely out of the question either.
Even as a kid in the early 2000s the outdoor portion was always a little eerie to me. I remember my friend’s and I going to a few of the restaurants in high school every so often, as it was kind of the center of where everyone lived. My parents do enjoy Lechon Latin BBQ though, and say that it can get quite lively there.
I’ve always found these little outdoor areas at enclosed malls more than a bit odd. At least for Raleigh, North Hills is the model for these outdoor “malls”.
I still think it’s odd, especially since it was designed that way from the beginning. Also, Streets really doesn’t have any competition on the Durham/Chapel Hill side of the Triangle. How can it not be successful?
The outdoor section of TTC was never a success, not even on day one. Don’t really know why it was such a flop and Southpoint was successful, but it is what it is.
The outdoor portion of the Streets at Southpoint has the some of the best stores in the entire mall complex. Apple, Pottery Barn, 4 strong restaurants, plus the movie theaters. Triangle Town Center has a lot of more competition with retailers and restaurants that like environment that being North Hills not too far way. For TTC I would knock down some of that outside retail and put in an apartment building 4-5 stories tall with ground floor retail and watch that area take off. Make it more of a town center with a hotel, ground floor retail and apartments.
The Streets at SouthPoint is the market dominate shopping center for all of Durham and Chapel Hill. Plus Nordstrom is a great draw that being the only location in the Triangle.
I would agree with doing away with the outdoor portion of the mall but I think they should sell the endless parking to private developers before tearing down potential assets given the popularity in outdoor malls. It could help the new owners find tenants later on.
If I may, there are a few things that make Southpoint’s outdoor section more successful:
It’s much larger than TTC…I recall Southpoint had initially planned their outdoor portion, whereas TTC added it in after seeing Southpoint.
Southpoint’s outdoor section has destination bookends with the main mall and the movie theater and Urban Outfitters. It connects well and it much wider laid out, which makes gathering more accessible. TTC’s had one good bookend and then stopped awkwardly at Sumner Blvd. before “connecting” to Dick’s.
The retail mix was truly mixed and well laid out. You had the restaurants around the fountain and movie theater, increasing gathering and lingering spaces. Connected in between were destination retailers like Apple, Crate & Barrel, and Pottery Barn.
I also think the connection to the mall is better thought out where Southpoint meets at ground level and TTC was on the second level of the mall, which was weird.
Agreed. Take out some of the parking and add in a few apartments where the parking lot exists. With as much surface level parking that TTC has, I don’t see why it couldn’t become a mixed use destination. There’s already a TON of shopping near TTC. From the Best Buy to the Target/Walmart/DSW, it’s only a mile. Put some apartments right in the middle at TTC and you have the selling point of a lot of shopping within a half mile. The only downside as of right now is that the walking experience isn’t the greatest. Replacing some of that surface parking with apartments, offices, a small park (to compete with NH), would fix that.
pre covid there were plans at Waverly Place in Cary to build a hotel in one of their many parking lots, and then more recently long after COVID it switched to apartments in one of their parking lots. I’m fairly sure the apartments are still in the works, swapping out parking and the Cinebistro theater wing for the apartments, but plans haven’t finished going thru the Town of Cary approval process. Love to see this kind of thing, though, even if it still will be “drive to urbanism.” It’s the same as what’s happening at Cameron Village.
I think this board is being way too light on TTC. Has anyone has looked at the history of its current owner (Kohan Retail Investment Group)? It is extremely worrying…if major changes don’t start happening very soon, I predict it will suffer a similar fate to countless other Kohan malls. Look at the STAGGERING number of delinquent utility payments, owed back taxes, foreclosures/receiverships, lawsuits, etc. This sounds like a group that cuts every corner and pinches every penny to squeeze every last drop of profit from its properties with no regard for the long-term effects.
And yeah, distressed malls can be bought at auction for a few dollars per square foot. If you only pay $10 per square foot up front, then collecting $3 PSF in rent (charge $5 PSF which is 90% cheaper than a good retail location, and leave 40% empty) and paying out $1 in expenses still leaves a 20% return, which is terrific.
