I was just teasing, but I do certainly watch for cyclists (and hope there aren’t many on I-40/885). I actually do wish I had other convenient commuting options. I would love being able to ride an electric-assist bike down a greenway to work! Unfortunately, my route is 100% highway, and I just read it will likely be at least another decade before the proposed commuter rail would be ready. At least I can WFH sometimes?
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I can certainly agree with that on multiple fronts. I run a lot on the greenway and a lot of people on e-bikes can come up on you quick and frequently don’t call out that they are passing.
E-bikes are making biking around much more accessible (which I think is a net positive thing), but it also needs to be accompanied with the appropriate education on how to be a responsible bike user.
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I’ll share my commute map as well. I’m sure if you commuted to DTR, your commute would be a breeze.
On the way there I took the greenway.
On the way back, I went through Five Points which is shorter for me. 35 mins there and 30 mins back.
To keep us on topic:
Update on the Mine Creek Bridge. It’s in place.
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This is where my mind was going? At what point have ebikes become mopeds and you’re driving 30mph on the greenway. It really takes away from the separation and safety a greenway provides. On the road, fine. But a greenway is a different mode, self propelled means of movement only.
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let me tell you… some mexicans in roanoke sneak 3 and 4 wheelers on the greenway here. listen to the mufflers of those compared to the quiet unnoticable whir of an ebike. shelly lake used to have people on regular bikes that exceeded the greenway speed limit. in fact, when i was in raleigh about a year ago i rode to johnston county on the greenway. some cycling club was at full speed zipping around worried walkers - these were just racing bicycles. i was saddened to see this. people need to be responsible in those areas too.
In general, I have a hope and a dream that everyone on wheels on sidewalks and places prioritized for pedestrians would behave as such.
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I think that’s part of the problem though, there really isn’t anywhere good that is prioritized for bikes.
My husband travels for work to Wisconsin frequently and he always raves about a section of their greenway that is geared more towards bikers. There are maintenance stations, the speed limits are higher, and a lot less pedestrian traffic. It seems like that is something that could thrive in Raleigh, but where would it go? I personally quit riding my road bike here because there aren’t many roads I feel safe riding on and then the greenways aren’t really a good option either.
I would love to see the Neuse River greenway become more bike focused overall.
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So here’s the thing that I observe. Mind you, this is coming from the perspective of an avid cyclist (someone who annually rides my bike from Miami to Key West sort of avid). No matter how much infrastructure is provided, there are always folks who will disrespectfully ride their bikes on sidewalks and pedestrian places. I see it over and over and over (not just Raleigh). I’ve come to the conclusion that there are just a certain number of people who want to ride a bike and only feel comfortable doing so in places where they feel complete power over their environment, pedestrians be damned. I liken it to those who are afraid of driving so they put themselves behind the wheel of a Ford Expedition.
For these people, no amount of separation on the street is acceptable. No amount of protected bike lane suffices. No cycling box intersection works for them. No amount of risk is taken, and it’s often at the expense of pedestrians as these folks ring their bells and yell at you on the sidewalk to get out of their way. These folks haven’t learned how to use a bike within the context of society. I keep coming back to the video below.
(TikTok - Make Your Day)
In a perfect world, we’d have off street bike infrastructure everywhere, but that won’t realistically happen. It can happen in some places, but it won’t happen everywhere. If people want to ride a bike, they are going to have to learn how to navigate the world on bike within reasonable accommodations and infrastructure. Before anyone starts calling me names here and throwing tomatoes, let me explain what I mean with an example. If there is a protected bike lane next to a sidewalk, cyclists should be in that bike lane if they are not small children learning how to ride a bike. If you are an adult, know how to ride a bike, and are STILL not comfortable riding in that protected bike lane, it’s not the pedestrians’ obligation to accommodate and yield to cyclists, yet I have seen this over and over and over.
If people need more time to build up to that level of confidence, then I suggest that they ride their bikes on sidewalks when it’s not primetime crowded. Ride a bike respectfully and stop if needed because of an encountered pedestrian. Build up confidence and skill set so that bikes are ridden where they should be, but please don’t be an entitled bully on the sidewalks.
I know that we have a long way to go to provide more infrastructure and I fully support that, but I think that we need to realize that it’s never going to be perfect and riders need to learn the skill sets to navigate safely by bike without being someone else’s safety issue.
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Oh I fully agree, I’m thinking more towards the bike for exercise type folks who want to be able to go out and really ride. I swapped my roadie for a gravel bike because Umstead is just a more enjoyable place to get in a good workout. I don’t want to have to bike in town in bike lanes where I’ll have to stop every 2 minutes, but I also don’t want to be stressed out riding on roads where people don’t give any space, so I adjusted.
But there is a big biking community in Raleigh that I feel is underserved and no matter what they do will either piss off car drivers or pedestrians.
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Neuse River Trail could easily be expanded. Double the width and have a section for Biking separate from walkers / runners. There seems to be plenty of right of way, without even needing to clear trees.
But I think for now the focus on the greenway system should be to better network the trails, create the missing links between the main trails, and more spurs into neighborhoods, so people can actually use them to get between places, rather then just a trail along a river / creek mostly for exercise.
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The Triangle Bike Highway plans seem similar to what y’all are describing – very wide path with a dedicated pedestrian lane + 2-way bike lane. And that sort of thing makes sense as going to RTP or Durham is a good distance and should allow cyclists to go faster.
As for our “regular” Greenways, they are vitally important for bike commuters and I think banning e-bikes on them is out of the question if we truly want to commit to safe multimodal transportation. But, I think reasonable speed limits make sense, and I personally am a big proponent of the yellow striping on the greenways to help reduce conflicts. I’d like to see the same on more roadside “multi-use paths” too. I think uniformity goes a long way for a quality bike network.
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A few things to add here:
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The Raleigh BPAC is looking at e-bike rebate/incentive programs at the request of the Mayor. ~30 US cities have these programs in place.
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The updated greenway master plan takes into account the fact that greenways are being used for transportation and not just recreation.
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City of Raleigh staff were talking with NC DOT about narrowing the travel lanes on Avent Ferry and maybe even reducing to one lane in each direction. I believe a widening of the bike lanes was also being discussed. I’ll follow up to see where this stands. This would all be done through an NC DOT resurfacing project.
@evan.j.bost Your route map suggests you took the cut through off Lake Wheeler road over to the Centennial Campus connector trail. There was a tree down blocking that unofficial trail - is it still there? So frustrating that NCSU will not do anything to improve or connect that ~100 yard section between the Lake Wheeler sidewalk and CC connector. There’s even a sign at the entrance of that trail saying “No bikes”. Homeless camps? Sure, no problem, but bikes are a no-no? Maybe we need to do some guerilla landscaping over there.
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I’ve been complaining to the City about Avent Ferry for a long time. Like Hillsborough St., that should be ground zero for quality bike infrastructure due to high student/car-free population. We desperately need protected lanes on the section from Gorman to Western. (Also, I’d like to see Mission Valley be redeveloped to something less car-centric, but bike lanes are a good start.)
Also great news about recognizing the greenways as transportation corridors for cyclists. That is so much quality bike infrastructure right there that other cities don’t have.
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I just responded to you in another thread about Hillsborough St. I’ve followed up with the city asking about the status of the Avent Ferry resurfacing project. I’ll post what I find out.
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The updated greenway master plan takes into account the fact that greenways are being used for transportation and not just recreation.
What specifically does this mean in terms of policy and action? The plan was passed a while ago now and little rock trail was still just closed with another suggested detour that forces bikes onto the sidewalk or MLK. Jr. Blvd with cars:
Incidentally, that section of Garner rd. is closed until November, not that that matters since the obvious detour here is Bragg to East, avoiding MLK entirely - clearly bikes were not considered in the detour decision.
This is saying nothing of the closure of Walnut Creek, with a planned closure of 12 months and by far the worst detour I’ve seen:
Though, at least that one was done before the greenway plan passed.
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See page 67 of the master plan:
Oak City Trail Expectations (continued on the following page)
• Expanded operating hours to provide safe and comfortable connections for active transportation
• Maintenance needs are prioritized over the needs of other trail classifications
• Re-routes and detours provided during maintenance, system improvements, or storm response
• Convenient bicycle parking
See also the Parks and Greenway Bond Referendum page on the city’s website: https://raleighnc.gov/parks/parks-bond-referendum#paragraph–357159
$10M from the bond would go to support Walnut Creek Greenway trail improvements from Lake Wheeler to Sunnybrook road. “Improvements to the existing Walnut Creek Trail from Lake Wheeler Road to Sunnybrook Road will include the relocation of the trail outside flood-prone areas where possible, improved community access, safety enhancements, and structure replacement.”
I can only tell you what these plans/bonds say they will do. Obviously I can’t predict the future and tell you what actions will occur.
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Your commute map gave caused me to take a trip out to Lake Johnson today. Took about an hour from Crabtree Valley mall via bike (my regular bike; not the ebike).
I love the number of trails we have that are greenway trails (not shared with cars). I am usually able to ride a bunch of variations of trails whether it be to Honeycutt Park N of 540, Anderson Point Park and beyond (all the way to Clayton), up to Umstead via NC Museum of Art, and now Lake Johnson via NC State. In saying that, I don’t understand why there are so many sections of the greenway that are disconnected. From looking at Google Streetview, I guess this portion has been like this for a while, but I don’t understand why the wider trail wasn’t extended the rest of the way.
There are so many sections of the greenway where I wonder what happened? Or why hasn’t this been completed or in the works? The section on Trailwood isn’t too bad because it’s a short section. The ones below are worse:
- Rocky Branch to Centennial Parkway. Ok this may not be an official greenway across Western, but I got stuck going back North on Pullen Rd because the light did not change for me through 3 light cycles. The Bike Raleigh app states there are bicycle lanes here. This was false until you get south of Western Blvd. Overall there should be some sort of Greenway connection across Western since Rocky Branch Trail runs on both sides.
- Crabtree Valley Avenue - The greenway gets disconnected from Crabtree Creek Trail. There’s only a sidewalk that runs next to the McDonald’s. I usually use the road here so it’s not the worst disconnection I’ve had to deal with.
- Lassiter Mill Rd at Crabtree Creek Trail - In the works, but I’m disappointed in how long this is taking to get done. Why can’t we take away the center lane and use the lane for a 2 way trail similar to Gorman.
- Oxford Rd (Crabtree Creek Trail) - isn’t too bad except that it sucks if you try to use it in the morning when people are dropping their kids off for school.
- N. Raleigh Blvd. ( Crabtree Creek Greenway) - This one is the worst I probably deal with. Since this trail is a bit more used, you either need to squeeze on the sidewalk or wait for people to pass by before proceeding. It’s another section where they could move the lane over and get rid of the median. I don’t think this one is in the plans anytime soon (correct me if I’m wrong).
- Six Forks Rd (E. Fork Mine Creek Trail.) - This is another bad section. Not only does the bike lane take you up to Six Forks Rd, but chances are you won’t be able to cross due to the lack of a signal light. I usually ride the sidewalk on the western side and then try to cross part way between Newton Rd and Longstreet Dr. This is if I take this section. Depending on the day, I’ll take Longstreet Dr and then connect to Mourning Dove Rd which will eventually get me back on the trail.
I won’t complain too much because I do love seeing the new trails and am appreciative of them. I’m really looking forward to the Crabtree Creek West Trail connection.
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Have you considered sending these to council or submitting it to one of the commissions? You’re obviously not the only one who experiences these same issues, so them having a list of known pain points could be really useful. Just a thought!
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Updates to Avent Ferry are still in progress through an NC DOT resurfacing project. Unfortunately the section of Avent Ferry to be modified is fairly short - from Athens Drive to Gorman St. The plan is to reduce the car lanes to 10 ft with an 11 ft center turn lane. The bike lanes would be 7 ft (5 ft asphalt, 2 ft gutter pan) with a 4.5’ buffer. No timeline for completion as of yet.
There is an Avent Ferry Corridor study that was adopted by the city in 2019 - Adopted Plans It includes separated bike lanes for some sections of Avent Ferry beginning at Western Blvd, but I have no idea when/if any of this will ever get build. Probably hinges on the progress of the BRT route on Western.
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I agree with many of these missing links in the greenway system. There is a greenway master plan out there that hopefully addresses these points. It’s a bazillion pages so would take some digging through.