Yeah, there’s one really bad spot between Lake Raleigh and Lake Johnson on Avent Ferry that’s really uncomfortable. The sidewalk is not in great shape, and you’ve got untrimmed trees extending out into that space. But as you’re heading toward Lake Johnson, if you leave the sidewalk, you either have to ride into traffic (horribly unsafe) or cross Avent Ferry twice, and there’s no crosswalk there when you get to Avent Ferry.
I’m not sure why the city hasn’t done anything to address this. It should not be, relatively speaking, that difficult of a fix.
I ride the Crabtree Creek trail often and the main problem I have there is the section where it crossed North Raleigh Blvd. Outside of that, it’s a wonderful trail. I’ve only gone out as far as Mial Plantation. One of my buddies went all the way to Clayton and back. He was out of breath when he got back.
As far as commuting goes, I may start going back to the office downtown in the new year. I’m not sure if I’ll ride there, but I may ride back (so that I can shower when I get home). When I ride back from downtown, I usually ride back on N. West St, through eastern Five Points. I’ll probably use White Oak street the majority of the way and then get on at Alleghany Drive. Given my commute, it does show that the greenway doesn’t really work for me commuting since I would use a small portion. If I worked someplace close to the greenway, then I’m sure it would be more beneficial. Unfortunately North Hills and Downtown are lacking in connections to the greenway. The closest connection I can use is North Hills park. Lassiter Mill Rd is terrible.
I don’t know if I trust using St. Marys and crossing Glenwood at that intersection. Does anyone use that way? What’s it like?
The Greenway Committee, the Parks, Recreation and Greenway Advisory Board, and the Bicycle and Pedestrian Advisory Commission endorsed the final draft with these amendments:
Graphically show open space corridors on maps with existing and future trails for better transparency of how open space and trails overlap.
Amend text related to trail lighting recommendations that provides clarity that greenway trail lighting will be evaluated for specific sections (existing and new projects) of the Capital Area Greenway System on a case-by-case basis and that lighting along trails will be site specific.
Amend the Oak City Trail cross section graphic and associated text to eliminate lighting as an expectation for this classification. Lighting will not be an expectation for this classification and lighting will be evaluated on need and appropriateness on a case-by-case basis.
Amend the Neighborhood Trail cross-section graphic and associated text to allow for flexibility of lighting on a case-by-case basis. Neighborhood Trails could serve as the “last mile” connection between destinations and lighting, in some cases, may be appropriate while other locations may not.
Amend text to provide clarity that the extension of operational hours of the Capital Area Greenway System will be “evaluated” as part of next steps. The adoption of the Plan Update does not officially extend operational hours and the evaluation of greenway system operational hours will be addressed as part of a future public process.
Amend text recommending seating to be added every quarter mile (1/4) within a mile (1) of trailheads. This amenity spacing will accommodate users that may need resting spaces more frequently.
Feels like they watered down the two things (besides more trails) that seemed significant to me, increased hours and lighting. Allowing neighborhood trails to have lighting is good, I’m just biased since I live off of walnut creek which is an “oak city trail”. It’s just not clear whether there’s any real priority for making the greenways useful as transportation.
I’m sure the lighting adds considerable cost. But if we want to transition form greenways being mostly for recreational use, to transportation (bike commuting), lighting needs to be a key component to allow safer use of the trails at night. Especially in the winter months when it’s dark by 6:00.
Do we really need 416 pages full of details requiring input from engineers, landscape architects, planners, transportation, zoning, etc. etc. for a greenway plan?
Imagine if they spent this much planning money/time/energy actually designing and building greenways where there currently aren’t any?.. They would still complete all the same social equity, mobility equity, environmental, pedestrian safety, and traffic analyses for each new greenway or improvement project. So we’re spending lotttssss of resources planning the master plan which only helps with the decision of priority.
This reeks of over-governmenting-committeeing-planny planning.
I can’t help but think of the Strong Towns mantra:
Observe needs in the community
Figure out what small improvement could be made to alleviate the need
Go do that thing. Just go do it.
I’m being crotchety. Apologies in advance.
For me, I think so. It’s really important to have guiding principles and something to look to so that there is consistency with what you are trying to achieve. Can these plans be a bit overkill? Probably. But ideally this should last years, if not decades, to provide a starting point and a priority list for greenway design and installation.
I guess to use the mantra you have listed, the plan should achieve steps 1 and 2 and then the design/build is step 3.
There is also the reasoning that since all of these things are funded by taxpayer money, there has to be a ton of documentation that shows how money is being spent and why those decisions are being made. Even if it costs more money to do that, it’s a necessary step.
Hmm - good point. I know some sections are pretty open, and others are pretty dense with lots of trees. Not sure how much power the lights would need. It was just a thought I had.
Even if lights would only charge enough to stay lit for ~4 hours. It would extend the evening times for trail use from 6pm to 10pm in the winter months.
I totally understand why the master plan is being created, but it does not achieve #2 of the mantra. #2 is like… Hey look, these branches are making this Greenway more hazardous to bike on. I’m going to chop them back right now, with my pocket knife because that’s all I have at the moment. That’s the mentality I speak of. Radically incremental micro-improvements identified and corrected, constantly. Not a mega drawn out planning process that moves at a sloth’s pace and costs hundreds of thousands of tax dollars to create. I have little hope that a city as sophisticated as Raleigh could ever devolve into a radically incremental micro improvements culture. Although it’s a messier approach that requires admitting wrong and course-correcting more often than identifying and planning for right, I think it would result in a stronger Greenway network in the long run.
Just my opinion. It is 90% based on Chuck Marohn’s attitude about over-planning, and how audacious it is for planners to design the built environment to be completed into a final use and finished state, as if all of human civilization hasn’t been marked by emergent, interdependent, evolving human habitats.
I think I had heard them mention in the meeting a concern about wildlife and light pollution. It’s a legit concern, but a ridiculous argument. If that was the case, then why light up the roads? I think you pointed this out really well, but if they do want people to use it outside of recreational use, it needs lighting.
If the lighting isn’t provided, then they need to concentrate making the roads more bike/pedestrian friendly if they don’t want to add lights. I would prefer avoiding car traffic altogether, but would be willing if they made the roads safer (not simply making sharrows).
Oh I see, so more for smaller stuff. That definitely makes sense.
To use your specific example, the trail running community actually does that a lot. People will break off branches that are encroaching in trails as they run to help maintain the trail systems. Or when I lived in Savannah people who lived downtown did a lot of the park cleanup after a hurricane since city staff was overwhelmed. I really like the idea of community members taking ownership of some of these smaller items especially since so many groups are understaffed and underfunded.
Nice, I bet it was fun living in Savannah.
I also like the idea of community ownership, and it takes an organizer to make it happen on a meaningful level.
I got off the rails a bit with the tree branch example. To reel it back to my original point, the master plan is a beautiful document with a wealth of info, but I truly believe it is over-planning. The outcomes in real life would be better if the city took a more incremental approach to planning and improving the greenway system, because the process would be more flexible and adaptive to changes. This talk: Strong Towns | Charles Marohn | Talks at Google - YouTube
Also, there is a roundabout installation project planned for the Carolina Pines dr. / Lake Wheeler intersection, which is where this greenway would cross L. Wheeler.
Looks like they are starting the bridge replacement for bridge structure 37 (Project link). I’m hoping this get this over a lot sooner than expected. I also think they did a very bad detour route here (detour link). This is the second year in a row where the greenway is closed in this section. For the families that I see who walk over to North Hills park from this section, this would cause a 20 minute detour. Again poor planning.
Luckily there’s a desire path that connects from the north side of structure 38 to just east of structure 37. This should have been listed as a detour route instead. I’m sure the people who live in this area will use this path instead. I’m kind of surprised the bridge wasn’t just demolished and a new path was put in. I’m also happy this didn’t happen either because I’m sure that way both the bridge and unofficial detour route would have been closed.
Crabtree Creek Greenway:
LASSITER MILL ROAD TO HERTFORD STREET IN RALEIGH. CONSTRUCT GREENWAY TRAIL.
Closes a small gap in the greenway at Lassiter Mill Park.
Also, an extension at the Cary end:
BOND PARK TO SR 1615 (HIGH HOUSE ROAD) IN CARY. CONSTRUCT GREENWAY BETWEEN BLACK CREEK AND WHITE OAK CREEK GREENWAYS AND BETWEEN BOND PARK AND PRESTON FIELDS PARK. This connection from Bond Park to Preston would extend the Crabtree trail (via Crabtree Crossing Pkwy’s bike lanes through Preston) to Bond Park, which in turn has connections east to Downtown Cary and west all the way to the ATT. Also creates a loop with Black Creek Trail.
Seems that a driving force behind the design for this Lassiter Mill greenway connection is to avoid pissing off rich people in mansions, and this compromises the design somewhat.
Would be a much better trail experience if they stayed at creek level, following the sewer ROW through some rich peoples’ backyards on the north bank of the creek, and crossing back over to Lassiter Mill Park, but instead they’re sticking with a route along Hertford Street.
Current bike route
Current walking route
Proposed new route
What I would have liked to see