Raleigh Stadium/Arena/Sports Discussions

[xdavidj]

@daviddonovan

Luckily my argument is not based on any of those things that I never mentioned. The lack of an interstate highway can’t change, and the presence of a well-organized residential neighborhood right next to the campus can’t change. Some of those other things can change over long periods, maybe, but the Tampa Bay Rays are currently homeless. They don’t have a few years down the line. They need to solve their problems ASAP. (And, seriously, a highway connection? Where? How? With what money? Do you have any idea how long it takes to bring that sort of thing from idea to fruition, even when you don’t have to do it over the dead bodies of every resident of Oakwood?)

I’m not sure if my last comment was fully addressed, as it specifically pointed out that this could be about a longer-term plan, not the Rays’ immediate situation. Yet, your entire counterargument is still anchored to the Rays needing a solution ASAP. That’s not what I’m arguing.

It feels like you’re selectively responding to parts of my argument while ignoring the core point: this might not be about the Rays at all, but rather a broader strategy that could take years to unfold. If you’re going to engage, at least address the actual argument I’m making instead of sticking to a narrative I’ve already said might not apply here.

@daviddonovan

You’re not buying what they’re selling because you personally wish they had said the opposite of what they said. When developers buy a plot of land and say they want to build a particular thing on it, we generally don’t assume that they’re being deceptive and they secretly want to do the exact opposite of what they said, especially something that would be vastly more expensive and difficult on so many levels. There’s no reason to think that here, other than that you personally wish it were so, and that’s not a good reason. Also, this company has never, not once, actually a built a stadium.

Let me clarify something: I’ve never said, nor implied, that I want an MLB stadium in Oakwood. My argument isn’t based on personal desires; it’s about looking at the bigger picture and connecting the dots based on what I know. If anything, I’m just pointing out how developments like this have unfolded in the past and why dismissing the possibility outright ignores the fluid nature of these situations.

Your assumption that I ‘want it to happen’ is a complete fabrication. I’m not arguing for or against a stadium here—I’m simply skeptical of the current narrative because history shows that plans, goals, and circumstances change. Developers buy land, public stances evolve, and what seems unlikely today can become reality tomorrow. That’s just the nature of urban development and major projects.

@daviddonovan

Name one. Literally one.

Here’s two:

https://www.sfgate.com/warriors/article/agnos-homespun-crusade-to-block-warriors-arena-5004337.php

Opponents of Atlantic Yards Are Exhausted by a Long, Losing Battle (Published...

Challenges to stadium projects happen all the time—financially, infrastructure-wise, and politically. Whether it’s opposition over public funding, concerns about traffic, or legal battles over land use, these obstacles are almost guaranteed with any major development. These are just a few recent examples where significant pushback and hurdles were overcome. Acting like these challenges don’t exist, or aren’t regularly resolved, doesn’t change the fact that they happen all the time and don’t necessarily stop a project from moving forward.

@daviddonovan

I have an extremely healthy skepticism–that there will ever, ever be an MLB stadium on SAU’s land.

Good. But don’t pretend it’s impossible—it isn’t. When a company that literally states on their ‘About Us’ page that their goal is to build stadiums buys a big piece of land, maybe it’s time to consider that smoke instead of ignoring it completely. Taking them at their word, without questioning the broader possibilities, isn’t skepticism—that’s just blind trust. Until there’s a shovel in the ground and they’re actually building housing, staying skeptical of their real intentions makes more sense.

[Brandonq]

If there were a “stadium” built at the SAU site it would not be for the type of teams that most here are envisioning, but it could open the door for a real stadium somewhere more practical (elsewhere, obviously). I’m sure others have heard similar types of wild rumors about how this land plays into the bigger picture, however unlikely.

[BoyHowdy]

@Spero

Here is an article

From what that write up says, this firm has been in business a grand total of TWO YEARS as an MBE startup from a guy who worked for AECOM in Florida. MBE is a minority business enterprise, which in most all public sector projects and a significant number of private sector infrastructure projects (stadiums, multi-family housing, hotels, convention centers, schools), a certain portion of work is set aside for minority-owned firms and/or women-owned firms to play a signficant role.

By virtue of these unearned characteristics, this “checkbox” status for the firm allows it to get more attention and publicity than it actually has earned (like the way AECOM or Gensler has actually earned…from like, you know, DOING the projects). Still, everyone has to start somewhere, and every surgeon or dentist or barber had their first patient, so maybe this guy and his new firm might do a decent job at SAU, whatever he ends up arranging to get built.

It’s naive to think in 2 years of existence his firm should have built a stadium. Article goes on to say he learned about the SAU financial crisis 30 days before the deal. as a fellow minority, he says he wanted to help them out. All good noble ideas. But 30 days is not a typical due diligence period to make a large investment or construction decision. I have a hunch he’s working mostly worth OPM, other people’s money, who may eventually buy him out, get him a payday and some credibility earned for his new startup, and get the buying firm some strategic real Raleigh estate in their portfolio that they can perhaps flip themselves, or build whatever. But it sure as hell isn’t going to be an MLB stadium in OAKWOOD for crying out loud.

[UncleJesse]

“We were created and pride ourselves as a disruptive real-estate finance company not purely focused on revenue, but on job creation, social equity and ensuring that hard-working taxpayers around the country never have to pay for another professional sports stadium or arena,” Valrie wrote in the announcement.

This quote alone should raise all kinds of red flags…what real estate development firm uses “social equity” as input into their ROI calculations?

“Not purely focused on revenue”!!!..then you will be focused on handing the keys over to the bank ultimately

[mike]

Dundon’s rezoning for the entire arena site is on the agenda for Thursday’s Planning Commission.

Seems like an easy approve, but who knows.

The Raleigh Sports & Entertainment District Master Plan proposes four subdistricts: Arena/Parking; Entertainment; Mixed-Use; and Live/Work. Districts vary by maximum allowable height ranging from 15 stories to 40 stories.
The request is consistent with the Future Land Use Map.
The request is consistent with the 2030 Comprehensive Plan.
The request is inconsistent with the Urban Form Map.
The deadline for Planning Commission Action is March 24, 2025.

[oakcityyimby]

UNC is still considering off-campus Dean Dome replacement locations: https://www.bizjournals.com/triangle/news/2025/02/06/dean-smith-center-unc-basketball-arena-lee-roberts.html

This feels like it could be a serious self-inflicted screwup in terms of stadium atmosphere at a time when most schools are building smaller, louder on-campus arenas, which would be the perfect antidote to the Dean Dome being outdated and too big. UNC Basketball is one of the region’s biggest, proudest exports and a massive revenue and reputation driver for the school - why dilute it?

[Brandonq]

The initial reaction every single UNC alumni has is the same as yours - that it’s inconceivable to move any of the UNC athletic facilities off of main campus. The on-campus experience before games is one many find special.

But the reality is there’s not much room on campus for a new arena and even a smaller capacity arena will have a bigger footprint than the current one. A lot of things about the experience once you get to the Dean Dome, which can’t be expanded in footprint, are awful. It’s one narrow concession space for both levels and zero suites/premium amenities. Ancient tight bathrooms. Limited food/drink options because of that limited space. Also, the historical seat license ownership structure prevents UNC from putting students around the court like they should be.

Then there’s TV broadcasting half the games at 9p on a weekday, so getting home at a reasonable time isn’t an option for the 17k non students attending when you know you probably aren’t even getting to your car until well past midnight. Even as a student, most don’t live on/near South campus, so it’s a hike.

So, all that being said, there’s an opportunity to do something that improves the situation if done with some thoughtfulness. The BRT they put on MLK to Carolina North will still allow you to start your game day on Franklin St and get there faster than you would get to the Dean Dome and that location has much easier access to the interstate.

[wroncsu]

@oakcityyimby

is feels like it could be a serious self-inflicted screwup in terms of stadium atmosphere at a time when most schools are building smaller, louder on-campus arenas, which would be the perfect antidote to

NCSU made the mistake to move off campus in the 1990s and it seriously hampered the game day atmosphere and program recovering from the shoes/tickets “scandal” at the end of Jimmy V’s tenure. I personally hope Carolina makes a similar mistake, but they don’t have to look too far down the road to find two polar opposite examples of the difference that on campus arenas can make for a program.

Hell, every experience I’ve had going to Reynolds for WBB the last 4-5 years has been miles better than what I’ve gotten at Lenovo/PNC and that’s even before taking into account the quality of the programs.

[Daniel]

This was before my time living in Raleigh so I’m not sure of the history, but why didn’t they build a new arena on the Centennial Campus? Seems like there would’ve been plenty of space back then when they were deciding on it.

[GucciLittlePig]

I’ve never heard of the Dean Dome but it sounds like a nickname for a guy’s bald head. Maybe they should come up with a new name while they’re redoing whatever stadium this is.

[John]

You can bet your bottom dollar that any new arena will carry a corporate sponsor’s name. It’s all about the these days.

[oakcityyimby]

My college has an off-campus football stadium, with easy bus access, and I can co-sign that it isn’t the same.

As much as planners would love people to treat it like a walk, they just don’t in practice. Fewer people come, the pregame atmosphere is bad as people split between locations or stay in their houses/dorms, it’s just hollow.

Making it better for the alums and fans who have to drive there at the expense of making it worse for the college students sucks the “college” out of the game, which is what makes it so much more fun than pro sports.

[DaveNC]

I didn’t start as a supporter of Carolina North, but its grown on me.

As a former UNC student, for most students once you are a sophomore you start moving north in Chapel Hill and farther away from the dean dome, so yes this move will be tough for the freshmen and others who stay on campus for soph/junior, but the point that Carolina north is 1.6 mi from Franklin St and Dean Dome is 1.3 mi is critical among all the other points about the Dean Dome.

Its also important to consider all the notable alums UNC has who are EXPERTS in real estate and will not allow the university to mess this up…eg look at who the new business school building is being named after (very succesful RE guy). The mixed use approach is the right way to go and we will only densify this area in a good way.

The building is 40 years old, will be 45-50 by the time the new building is done. I think we all continue to try to fool ourselves and convince ourselves that we should just renovate the Dean Dome, but the building is decrepit, one-concourse, poorly located etc. etc. Its time to move on. Not everyone likes change, but leaders make changes. That’s their job.

[oakcityyimby]

To be clear, I think almost everyone in this thread acknowledges the current Dean Dome needs to go. It’s a mediocre basketball arena with a lot of history, but also a lot of unfixable issues.

The dream would be to replicate Texas’ Moody Center. Gorgeous arena, on campus, can host concerts, good middle ground capacity that feels busy on a weeknight game (an Achilles heel for the Dean Dome), but big enough for a major weekend game to feel intense.

[Nickster]

Sorry to be that guy… but what does this have to do with downtown Raleigh or the Stadium complex renovations? Last time I checked Chapel Hill was 2 counties removed from Raleigh. Just saying…

[pBeez]

I don’t recall Centennial ever being in the running really. @John might have a better memory of this debate, but it really came down to those pushing for an unspecified downtown site - there were a few suggestions on the south end of town, and Finely Meadows (my name for it). The energy was all on the site where it ended up. Part of it was access, part being in the center of the region, and the fact that stadium was there meant there was experience with getting students out there.

I have to agree with @wroncsu about the experience at Reynolds, even before it had a/c. I loved walking out of the games, the congestion through the tunnels, everyone talking and cheering or holding back tears, as then we all dispersed through campus towards Hillsboro. I always walked to games, so I never had to deal with the traffic, but those are great childhood and college memories for me. Much better than sitting in the traffic after football games as we slowly made out way out.

[John]

I am eternally grateful that Reynolds was the bball venue when I was at State!
The only thing that I didn’t like about Reynolds was the smoking in the concourse!!!

As for the location, the “donation” of the land was already in NC State’s portfolio so it reduced the cost of the project by not having to acquire land, and it was part of State’s contribution to the project in addition to the millions raised by the Wolfpack club.

[pBeez]

Dome of the Dead is a better nickname for the joint.
Students use to sit upstairs, and one player (I forget who) called it the “wine and cheese” crowd. The ushers use to enforce a no standing rule, so that the privileged alumni could watch with out having to stand, lol.
Remember, to their credit, this was all privately paid for. Folks ponied up for seat licenses that extend generations - I think the contract said something as long as Silent Sam stood guard over campus . . .
@John’s point about smoking, y’all, I can’t even tell you what a second half was like, after everyone smoked up at half time. The haze in the old barn was such that you could barely make out the far ends of arena, lol.

[John]

At least Carolina donors have a level of control at the Dean Dome. Those of us who ponied up money to build State’s arena have zero say in what happens there. The authority runs it and other than access to one’s seats, there’s no practical benefit to having donated. Also, we can’t pass down our rights to anyone, and we even had to re-up after 20 years because me and my buddy+wife formed a corporation to afford the donation when we were much younger, and our ticket rights weren’t “lifetime”. It’s all about the money now.

[UncleJesse]

I am a Carolina alum (twice).

This is a TERRIBLE idea…all you had to do was look East to the RESA/RBC/PNC/LENOVO/ABC123 parking lot arena that was absolutely dead for 25 GD years!!!

Even the new development proposal sucks compared to moving the arena back on NC States campus or downtown where it should have been built in the 1st place.