Raleigh Stadium/Arena/Sports Discussions

It sure seems exciting and all, but I would exercise some caution. Read up on Talen Energy Stadium in Chester, PA. It’s the home of Philadelphia’s MLS team. They built it in an opportunity zone with huge tax breaks thinking it would spur development around it and lead to the rebirth of the city of Chester, but uh…well…take a look.

That said, I trust Kane will follow through more than any other developer.

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Yeah, it seems like unless there are already businesses in the area, sports arenas mostly just spur the development of parking lots.

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PNC Arena was built where it was with hopes of spurring development along Wade and Edwards Mill.

The arena opened in 1997.

I’m not convinced sports venues spur development. It’s the other way around.

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Usually once these developments get public funds they do their damnedest to hold on to those funds. Usually this is done with language in the lease agreement or another bite at the apple like the recent request by PNC arena. If the stadium funding component were contingent upon getting an MLS franchise I would be more open to using the public funds but as it stands I support using this money for other projects and letting Kane and Malik find other sources of revenue. If it’s such a great deal I don’t know how they can let it die.

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So what I get out of this is, If they build a soccer stadium on Kane’s new land, great, otherwise it is going to turn into North Hills South. Either way, Kane will develop that land.

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@dtraleigh

Leo, I’d encourage you to visit other cities where stadiums and arenas were built in urban cores and ask about the economic development is spurred. You don’t have to go that far. Check out Durham for instance. Go to Fayetteville this summer after their ballpark is finished. Go to Washington DC where they placed the Nationals stadium in an area that wasn’t safe to walk in 8 years earlier.

Raleigh made a stupid decision to place PNC where it did, when it did, period. Every other city in America was investing funds for new stadiums and arenas downtown. NC State had too much say in the arena. Paul Coble & Tom Fetzer were useless leaders for the City at that time. What we ended up with was a beautiful facility…in a parking lot with 0 economic payback. Go ask the folks in charlotte what the football stadium and basketball arena have helped in terms of igniting economic activity.

As an aside, I’ve read a lot of comments about how stadiums ‘don’t pay for themselves, or are handouts to rich people, etc’. These are similar arguments they are made with respect to public transit (ie: light rail). In isolation, stadiums nor light rails pay for themselves but this is where the argument against public projects are flawed, because they fail to factor the economic return generated at rail stops where massive investments are made in high-density housing, retail, & office space. The same can be applied for a sports facility in a downtown core.

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I’m fine with just North Hill South or NoHiSo as it will come to be known.

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Do you think none of these areas would have developed without their stadiums? Maybe not as quickly or in specific areas; maybe Amazon chooses Anacostia instead of Crystal City in VA if Natinals Park isn’t built. So did the stadium end up costing DC? No one knows because there are too many variables and you can’t re-sim the development to find out.

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I thought I’d do a little before/after comparison of development around an urban ballpark. I selected Coors Field for my sample. It was completed in 1995. The images below are from 1993 and 2018. Note that the majority of development / redevelopment is to the west and northwest of the stadium, not directly around the stadium. In fact, the pre-existing parking lots are still parking lots to this day.

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Just for fun… 1998 vs 2018:

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So there has been a lot of development, just suburban office park style.

Less likely to do with the stadium and more to do with growth in Raleigh in general and proximity to 40 and RTP.

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I just wonder how much faith you put in Kane to develop around any stadium that is built. Given his track record, I have a lot, but it will definitely be a North hills style area, There will be density, but will it be very connected to DT. Likely no. It will be its own little island, even with Cargill developed.

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Well, to be fair, this is Chester, PA. It’s neither Raleigh nor Philadelphia. Chester has been shrinking for decades and is half its former self. Chester isn’t a core city either and is 15 miles from Philly. Chester’s dealing with issues that makes Raleigh’s opportunity zone look like Cary. It’s a horror of a place. It often makes it on lists of “the worst in PA”. I made the mistake once of stopping there for gas on the way to Philadelphia International Airport. I saw more hookers than I saw gas stations. This is a false equivalency.

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I personally feel like stadiums and ballparks are symptoms of growth, not the cause. Relying on stadiums to spur development and economic growth, especially when they are asking for concessions from local government, should be approached with caution.

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My neighborhood is right across Edwards Mill from PNC. Only took 20 years but it worked! Lol

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North Hills East, about 35 acres. Kinda gives an idea for the scale of development that would surround a 10 acre stadium on a 40 acre site?

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and just like that, we all became NIMBYs without even realizing it :face_with_hand_over_mouth:

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For me it’s more like OKIMBY, just don’t make me pay for it.

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The big question is if people think that in 20-30 years DTR will be connected to this site (and Cargill) by walk-able urban development? Does the street layout have the bones for this? Or will this ALWAYS be an island of development. It’s only 1-1.5 miles from DTR, so it’s not out of the question to form a continuous area in the long term future.

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