@Loup20. Having watched Cardinals football and baseball at old Busch Stadium back in the day, I can agree wholeheartedly that the experience sucked. Kansas City didn’t fall into the single stadium trap, and watching Royals and Chiefs games were better for it.
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Same here. We use to watch Cleveland Indians games in Browns Stadium in the 80’s. During those 100-loss years, sometimes there would be just 5,000 of us drunk losers there. Misery loves company.
But then they built a new stadium just for baseball, and magically the Indians thrived.
They also brought the NBA stadium out of the remote suburbs into downtown. They also thrived.
These new stadiums were part of an overall renovation of the lake Erie waterfront (with new science museum and RocknRoll Hall of Fame) and along the river and integrated into the warehouse district. The whole place is unrecognizable with all the improvements.
Of course I would still never move back. Cleveland is a place that you’re… from. But they demonstrated you can take a crappy situation and flip it into an thriving zone. Lessons for other cities for sure.
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If at all possible , I would like to see a combination MLS , MLB , or Minor League Baseball Stadium built as part of DowntownSouth Development . High Point Rockers baseball will have a future minor league soccer team play at their stadium .
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No baseball mix use stadiums. They just don’t work.
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I can understand your statement . As hard as it is to get a stadium project in Raleigh done , I feel that 2 stadiums just would not happen .
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For a long time, I struggled with how to precisely characterize MLS’s business model. Neil deMause has likened it to a Ponzi scheme, which isn’t exactly wrong, but also isn’t quite right–Ponzi schemes work by giving unsustainably large profits to early investors, where as MLS has never been profitable. But luckily recent news developments have given me the perfectly way to describe it.
MLS is essentially WeKick–like WeWork, but for soccer. If MLS hands out a 30th “franchise” (actually a 1/30 stake in a single-entity structure, plus the operational rights to a specified market) at an expansion fee of $200 million (the current price), that implies a valuation of $6 billion, which is quite the hefty valuation for a business that doesn’t turn a profit and doesn’t have an obvious path to profitability. Sort of like WeWork, this isn’t really a problem for anyone other than the investors in the company, and it’s not really a problem if a bunch rich dudes take a bath because they paid too much for a stake in the company, but it is kind of crazy to watch happen in real time.
@Francisco I’m sure Charlotte and Raleigh would both do fine, but looking at state populations probably isn’t the best comparison point. Most pro sports teams either fail to really capture their whole state (even collectively) and/or capture a significant portion of another state. For instance, New Jersey has a lot more people than Missouri, but New Jersey has zero MLB teams while Missouri has two, because New Jersey is well serviced by New York and Philadelphia teams, whereas St. Louis and Kansas City get a good chunk of their fan base from across state lines. You’d see something similar play out in North Carolina. You’d have parts of the states that Charlotte and Raleigh wouldn’t really reach (especially if we’re talking about MLS), whereas Charlotte would draw a very significant portion of its fan base from South Carolina, as the Hornets and (especially) the Panthers do.
@John Oh, yeah, the dual purpose stadiums were just awful, and I don’t really think there’s any way to make them not awful, and that would go every bit as much for a theoretical baseball-soccer frankenstadium as well.
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Sports franchise valuation is an interesting thing. You definitely see teams set their valuations based upon brand value much more than a traditional DCF / multiple methods that you’d see in traditional businesses. In other words, most of them pitch to their investors as a you buy for the eventual asset appreciation and not for the potential cash flow the project will get you. That said, one is inherently tied to the other for other businesses, but in sports that dynamic is looser. As one sports franchise owner I met said, if your goal is to run a profitable business, don’t own a sports team. The assumption is that with the popularity of the sports growing eventually the asset value will appreciate. But I’m skeptical that on a cash flow basis something like MLS can generate the cash from TV, tickets, merchandise that other US major sports can. I’m definitely interested in how they got to a $200M franchise fee number.
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I’m sure that much of it comes from the fact that a pro sports team is essentially a really expensive toy. The price reflects scarcity and the fact that these guys (and they’re pretty much all guys) want to live the dream of being the boss of a pro sports team. But MLB is assumed to be very profitable, and the prices paid for teams suggest that they are, in fact, profitable, even if the P/E is astronomical because of the cool toy factor. (I’m sure the same goes for the NFL and NBA, and probably NHL as well.) But MLS doesn’t bring the same promise of profitability, which makes the valuations look pretty crazy. Can’t wait to see how the negotiations for new TV contract go in 2022.
Yeah, every NFL team is profitable before a single game is played due to the league broadcast contracts with Fox and CBS. Baseball it depends on the team, but the ones with their own TV networks are highly profitable. Although that is a fairly recent trend. NBA makes something like 30% of their revenue from China and is printing money. NHL though many teams have issues breaking even, unless you are one of the Canadian teams. But I think it’d be years before MLS reaches even the profitability of the NHL. They just lack the TV money and sponsorships the other leagues have
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Supposedly only 10% from China, which makes that whole situation even worse.
I’d say the NHL is doing quite well. Only the obvious ones losing money and I’m curious to see the Cane’s most recent numbers.
I think the whole dual-sport stadium thing is a good conversation. For example, a dual sport stadium makes total sense on paper (esp. in a downtown that is strapped for land). Shared infrastructure, shared staff, limited land use, etc. However, the gameday experience ends up suffering big time.
I do not think MLS and MLB can share a stadium, just like I don’t think MLB and NFL can share a stadium, but I doI think if you look at Raleigh’s case where MLS is looking like it may be off the table, I do believe you could hypothetically have an MLB stadium that allows NCFC/Courage to play there. In fact, I think the number is like 30% of USL teams play in current or former ballparks. Obviously I"m biased on this issue, but IF Raleigh were to be a contender in MLB expansion, then I think you could have a win/ ‘semi-win’ where you build a proper MLB stadium and use it for NCFC/Courage games.
Let me explain.
If you had a MLB/MLS shared stadium, you’d have to fill it with 25-27k people nightly for baseball and 15-20k for soccer. With poor game day experiences for both, you’d never hit those numbers.
However, if you build a proper baseball stadium you’d have a great gameday experience for baseball and a ‘just decent one’ for soccer. However, bringing NCFC/Courage downtown would likely increase attendance. Note that NCFC and the Courage both average about 5-6k per game. So while you may not have the ‘perfect soccer experience’ , the location alone should help you hit that 5-10k per game number you’d be shooting for.
Sure, in a perfect world you’d still have 2 stadiums, but this option would be a way to look at not only bringing MLB to Raleigh (if an investor were to get involved), but also giving NCFC/Courage the option of tapping into the growth and buzz of downtown.
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** I will also say that the dual pro-sport stadiums of the 70s will never work, so that convo really shouldn’t even exist. However, it’s 2019 and I think in the not too distant future we’ll see a new form of dual-use stadium begin to emerge.
As technology in turf management progresses you won’t have to worry about field conditions. (Just last year they started laying extremely thick cut sod that can be laid and played on the next day). And just like you are seeing all sorts of new technology in retractable roofs over stadiums, i believe in the next 10-15 years you’ll start to see some expandable/retractable seating that doesn’t look or feel temporary.
So yes, I think the dual use pro stadium thing is off the table right now, but I believe the idea shouldn’t just die and be written off as technology continues to advance.
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Have you seen how they convert the Tottenham stadium for use by the NFL? They roll out the grass soccer pitch and underneath is a turf field that the NFL uses. It is pretty amazing and I’m sure expensive. But, it is a creative way to have both sports use the same stadium.
Soccer and Football can go together, for sure. The Sounders and Seahawks share a field. I can’t imagine the wear and tear on a field is worse than say, when an NFL and College FB team share a facility.
On a side note, there’s a big story developing that MLB is looking to contract about 40 minor league teams (about 25% of the current affiliated teams), mostly targeted at lower level teams with poor facilities. They are also talking about shifting a number of teams around. Durham, which is AAA, shouldn’t be affected, but the Mudcats, who are A, might. If the Mudcats lose their affiliated status, it makes a Raleigh independent minor league team more likely, imo.
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Today’s TBJ has a Charlotte Soccer Article .
I would say Charlotte’s odds are increasingly more in their favor
- Stadium ready to host games (only wants improvements for fans and boxes)
- 60 companies have pledged to spend $100k annually on luxury suited
- Ally Financial has already signed as lead sponsor
- Only asking the city for around 100 Million.
- Helps the city revitalize the former Eastland Mall site for the practice facility
- Billionaire owner
https://www.bizjournals.com/triangle/news/2019/10/22/mls-makes-sacramento-franchise-official-expected.html?iana=hpmvp_trig_news_headline
The Raleigh Group is asking for $300 Million on a hypothetical team and stadium project.
I still hope Raleigh gets a team eventually, but at this point Charlotte will clearly win this battle.
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Thanks Drew for the info. Yes , Maybe down the road for us . I support both baseball & soccer for our city .
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I think what charlotte USA is being asked for is much closer to Raleigh. Read an article that it was almost a bait & switch sounding but the insecure egomaniacs in charlotte will just agree to it if it makes them look “world class” in their minds.
Keep in mind Tepper is going to ask them for over $1B for a major stadium overhaul. Don’t buy the “$100M” number if that’s what they are saying. What he’s really going to ask for will be a hell of a lot more than Raleigh’s ask.
I said some unkind things about Chicklett today in class. To students in Alabama, most of whom have never been. The word “putzes” might have been used.