Which is more likely to happen, and faces the path of least resistance? I’d say the hotel. Let’s at least get that done ASAP. A DT arena could take a generation.
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Yes, a sports arena can take years to complete.
I don’t think an NHL arena will ever be built in DT.
Its not like the Wells Fargo Center in Phili is downtown or actually near anything. You might as well stay at the airport.
Not as bad as Raleigh though - I saw Radiohead’s final two shows (for now) there and stayed in a South Philly AirBNB, right on the edge of the city proper, and though we took Uber there to get in line earlier, we walked home from Wells Fargo Center both nights, and it was about a 20min walk - not bad at all. Let’s say Cameron Village is the furthest West of Downtown Raleigh that still feels dense/urban/city-like - that would be a MUCH longer walk than 20 min. PNC really seems like the middle of nowhere to outsiders. And even if you stayed nearby, the only “cool” thing around is the Art museum (which is indeed very cool and worth seeing if you’re a tourist). Plus, with Wells Fargo Center in Philly, you can see the skyline from the parking lot. Of course, Philly’s skyline is way bigger than ours. But that helps make it seem like it’s still “in” the city.
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I will say that with a way bigger skyline that sits up higher, you still feel like you are in a city even though you are in a big parking lot. PNC’s biggest problem is that nothing ever really developed around it. I think that is why a lot of new stadiums and arenas are now being built that also include building surrounding entertainment areas at the same time so that people can eat or drink before and after the event. Which is the blueprint that Downtown South is trying to follow.
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Not even remotely a comparable to PNC. Wells Fargo Center is exponentially more ‘urban’ than PNC’s vast parking lot with absolute ZERO entertainment options around it. There is no walkability unless you want to pretend you are Frogger trying to cross Wade avenue but when you get to the other side, there’s NOTHING.
PNC’s location was miserably short-sighted, influenced way to heavily by the old, NC State guard and uber conservative republicans in City council like Tom Fetzer and Paul Coble. And the by product is still felt 20 years later…
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Y’all should see where the Florida Panthers play. It’s on the very edge of the western developments of Broward County, out by a giant outlet mall, and across a tolled expressway from the Everglades.
Only looking at the arena and surrounding grounds design, location aside, one of my biggest issues is with the aparent lack of a master plan. There is no sense of arrival, no obvious main entrance, no mixed use potential leading up to the arena. I’ve been there 50 times probably and I still get confused on the best ingress/egress. It seems to align with Carter Finley, which seems cool on a plan view, but these two facilities are not used in conjunction so why orient them as if there’s some sort of synergy between them? It all just seems like a major land waste and haphazard design of ingress/egress
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Yeah, you can walk from Center City Philadelphia to the stadiums if you want to. You also have a subway stop. Since Raleigh has neither, it does feel like PNC is in the middle of a pasture. Hopefully the development at Wade on the other side of Edwards Mill can continue to fill out.
I realize not everyone is familiar with the good ol’ Philadelphia Sports Complex, so here’s a picture of it for reference. Feel the urbanity!
By the way, that is an NBA/NHL/events arena next to an NFL/NCAAF stadium next to an MLB stadium. Look at all the development all those stadiums spurred in the surrounding area! Also, I realize that this looks like a wasteland of parking lots when you’re just looking at it as a photo, but I would like to assure you that it in fact somehow even feels like more of a wasteland of parking lots when you actually experience it in person.
Philadelphia sometimes comes in for criticism for putting all the stadiums in this location, but I am here to tell you that it was absolutely the correct choice to shunt them all off on the very edge of town, at the intersection of two major freeways. Probably the only way they could have made it better would have been to put the Eagles stadium out in King of Prussia by the mall, or in New Jersey or something.
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Well I guess it could be worse for PNC…
This is my ultimate FEAR for a DTR stadium. The stadium itself, fine. The parking however? I cringe with what we might build alongside this and the dead zone it’ll create. I think you are right. For today’s driving culture, this makes the most sense.
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Or we could be like Winston-Salem and build a stadium without any parking. They just put it on the to do list for later.
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Especially considering the tailgate culture here. I’m curious how DC United tailgating morphed with their move from RFK to Audi Field.
I think a Glenwood South hockey arena would do fine since 80% of season doesn’t really align with prime tailgating weather and the pre-game culture could be shifted to bars and consolidated outdoor tailgating areas. MLS stadium would be a different story.
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Pittsburgh did an interesting thing with their stadium parking in that there are, usually, venues, museums, hotels or other businesses located on part of the various lots.
Plus, you can always take a Clipper ship from Station Square.
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If we have a BRT serviced park and ride parking deck in Downtown South that could be used as a tailgating area. You can also put a new hockey stadium and a soccer stadium next to each other with a pedestrian plaza/open air performance area where people can vomit into after the games that leads into a party street that is pedestrian only at 6 PM (like Austin’s 6th street). Obviously, this party street parallels one of the highways leading to and from Downtown. People can also mass exit the stadium via alternative directions if there’s a lot of people exiting both stadiums at the same time.
The party street can terminate at the new award-winning Raleigh Central Library and Community Art Park featuring a massive water feature.
#dreaming
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It’s actually the other way around in Pittsburgh. The sea of empty lots around Three Rivers became those things and there’s more development along the way. Tailgating will probably be mostly gone in the next 5-6 years. People park downtown and walk over to the North Side or they take the T that is free from the central business district to the southern part of downtown under the river to behind the stadiums and casino.
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Yeah, both Pittsburgh and Philadelphia did a good job ensuring that the same parking infrastructure could service multiple attractions. I’ve been to two games at PNC Park. One time we parked at the Rivers Casino, which is just to the west of this picture. (Just out of frame to the east is the Andy Warhol museum.) Another time we parked in downtown, which is just across the Allegheny River, and we walked across the river over the iconic Roberto Clemente Bridge, which was super cool. (The bridge is fully pedestrianized on game days, which is fantastic.)
PNC is rightly considered to be one of the best ballparks in MLB, and the city did a lot of things right here. First, like many cities, they built the new stadiums in the parking lot of the old stadium. They also put the stadiums, old and new, very close to the intersection of two major freeways because, look, a lot of people are going to drive to games. (Every MLB stadium save Wrigley is located very close to at least one freeway.) Running a highway through the heart of a densely populated urban area is a terrible land use, but almost every major city in the U.S. (except Raleigh!) has at least one, and in cities that were built along rivers (like Pittsburgh and Philadelphia), the highways usually parallel the river, thus compounding the error by cutting off the waterfront from the city. By wedging the stadium on a cozy 14 acres in the narrow strip of land between the highway and the river (and it was a very, very tight squeeze, let me tell you), the park claws back a little bit of that space.
Also, the stadium is not actually in downtown, but it is walkable from downtown and close to both a light rail station (both lines) and a Greyhound bus station, and an Amtrak station, so there are lots of options for getting to the ballpark.
Raleigh doesn’t have a beautiful river (sad), or a comparable transit network (very sad), or a freeway running through the heart of downtown (thank goodness!), or an old stadium’s parking lot to build in (meh). But we can replicate, and have replicated, the model of re-utilizing the same parking infrastructure for PNC Arena and Carter-Finley Stadium and the NC State Fairgrounds. That’s why I keep making the case that PNC Arena is exactly where it ought to be.
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You sure know how to get everyone on board there @Francisco. You had me at vomitorium, the fountain took this to nirvana. Let’s just please keep them well separated!
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