Raleigh Stadium/Arena/Sports Discussions

[GavinLivesRaleigh]

Do you have a PDF??? Of the proposal???

[nipper.dwight]

I don’t Gavin . I went to raleighnc.gov . Click on City Council . Click on Council Agenda . Click on March 17 2020 Agenda . Click on Feasibility Study . There will be 2 parts , 40 pages & 21 pages . Hope this info. will help you .

[keita]

Just a friendly head’s up about best practices: if a thing you’re citing requires multiple clicks and is not easy and obvious to find, it’s best to quote, add a URL, or post a screenshot of what you’re talking about.

Here’s the report:
https://go.boarddocs.com/nc/raleigh/Board.nsf/files/BMMNXH6210B5/$file/20200317CMOSoccerandEntertainmentStadiumFeasibilityStudyReport.pdf

It turns out the presentation is pretty optimistic, and glosses over some nuances that I think could make or break this project. To make up for it, I took the liberty of skimming through the report and summarizing the important points.

(…I’m totally not doing this because I have work that I’m procrastinating on… …nope. not at all…)

Before anyone accuses me of any sort of bias...

I personally don’t care much for whether Raleigh gets an MLS, MLB, or any other pro sports team. I’d be hyped if something like that actually happened, and I might even be convinced to learn the rules of whatever game of sportsball we’re supposed to embrace. If it turns out that recruiting or starting such a team will compromise what the city is supposed to do, though, I’m not going to be butthurt about losing this opportunity; I can honestly lean either way in the argument that never seems to end on this thread as long as the decision makes sense.

1. A DoSo Stadium needs year-round uses, and can only survive by being a useful regional destination year-round

…to the point that the report went ahead and pretty much assumed such a design from the start. The authors of the study looked at similar stadiums and what they do to be built and make money (aka “peer review”), and it showed that market analyses for the proposed stadium needs to assume that a sports team alone won’t cut it.

To deal with this...

…stakeholders (i.e. people, companies, and organizations who really care about this stadium in one way or another) brought up a need for a more flexible entertainment venue.

@from the study - format mine

JLL [the consulting agency behind this study] validated assumptions on the desirability of Wake County as a(n):

• destination for special sporting events […],

• entertainment/concert market, and

• venue for large-scale festivals.

[…] JLL solicited feedback from event organizers, concert marketers, experts and organizers of [major] special sporting events, and [the Greater Raleigh Sports Alliance] as to the potential for hosting such events in the venue. Given feedback as to [what Wake County does not have to offer today], JLL further refined the proposed stadium capacity to address that need.

As for soccer, specifically…

@from the study

Potential for MLS in Wake County

A final area of investigation was […] the likelihood of the stadium having the potential to attract an expansion team [for the MLS]. As it was apparent that the MLS decision on expansion teams past the
2021 season would not be forthcoming and given the award of the 30th expansion team to the Charlotte market, JLL focused its attention on the NWSL and USL for the potential use and visitor demand of the facility.

This means that this study needs to show if a NWSL/USL stadium that also acts as a general entertainment destination packs enough bang for its buck. This means it needs:

@from the study

Strong Placemaking Potential

As envisioned, the venue has the placemaking potential to create a new amenity for local use and some potential for visitor-facing events […]. The proposed [Penmarc site] makes the development accessible to downtown, Dorothea Dix Park, and to Interstate 40. […]

Differentiation Among Existing Professional Sports Venues

While there are facilities with comparable elements and uses […] within a 90-mile radius of Wake County, […] none offer [a] wide range of potential programming and flexible design. […] Many venues within the market lack a placemaking aspect [beyond] professional play.

Moreover, the current focus of the stadium on NWSL or USL play (as compared to MLS play) offers a level of flexibility that will be needed to engender other activity […] [T]he lack of flexibility created by needing to comply with major league sports rules often hampers stadium design and use.

Flexible Uses to Drive Visitation

[V]enues that are constructed with a primary use of professional, major league play are challenged. The stipulations of major league play often rule out other activation, leaving the stadium predominantly unused except during game days and are limited in supporting other event types.

Conversely, non-major league, professional play allows for a greater degree of flexibility, while still adding cache and branding to the development.

2. The stadium will mainly be for people who already go to similar events today

…but having more big urban festivals + new developments beyond the stadium could expand that clientele.

Exciting things about the 'urban festivals' bit...

@from the report

While [events like Hopscotch or the bluegrass festival, as they are today, are] perceived as a positive activity generator in the downtown core, the continued growth of these events […] suggest that relocating some—if not all—of the activity to a less congested area near downtown would be welcomed and provide opportunities for growth.

[…]

[N]ational event organizers suggested that, If designed correctly, the venue could—in time—serve as the anchor for signature, nationally renowned events and festivals (e.g., Coachella) which would be
significant drivers of overnight visits.

[…]

While the overnight and day visitors volume will not be high at the onset, JLL believes that the activity at the stadium and the activity induced within the entire development will have a broad-based impact on the County’s hospitality industry and will drive a wide spectrum of use.

These figures tell all.

@from the report

Note that both figures assume that a major multi-day event will move into the stadium 3 years or less after it opens. That’s a bit of a gamble, if you ask me.

3. Business models matter for stadium users

…but not as much for this study, in particular. The study laid out different options for how to finance the stadium (should it be led by a developer like Kane? a public-private partnership? or led by the city/county/some other public agency?), but didn’t make any particular recommendations.

[GavinLivesRaleigh]

@keita

break

So I read the Downtown South fesiblity study, bottom line it was a waste of time. Everything in the study basically said what Steve Malik was gonna do with the stadium. Games for the North Carolina FC, and NC Courage. That all no, nothing else I don’t know why it took this long when it could’ve taken a month could’ve saved our MLS expenditures.

Second,
MLS is not coming to Raleigh, at least for another 10 years, maybe longer. (If the worlds still here) okay in the study it mentioned several other stadiums in the country in cities like Kansas City, and San Antonio those cities I’ll first start with Kansas City has an MLS team and there stadium taxes made sense, cause it was retrofitted for MLS Sporting Kansas City. However, San Antonio there were on the list for a team but after the Columbus Crew debacle and it’s move to Austin that pretty much killed SA’s MLS bid. And there plan charges them if they don’t get MLS in 5 years which is pretty much not gonna happen they have to pay a 1 million to 5 million a year. Because Bexar County which is San Antonio brought a used stadium that could be upgraded to 20,000 seats for a possible franchise in MLS. What if the City/County of Raleigh and Wake County do the same he’s gonna step back. And unless his so-called lawyer is a billionaire then he’ll panic cause he won’t be able to get something like that done in 5 years. Now Raleigh has a way better chance at MLS than San Antonio, simply because San Antonio is an hour even 45 minutes from its Downtown to Austin and there future proposed stadium. And Raleigh and Charlotte or only 2 hours and 45 minutes within our Downtowns (or uptown for them) kinda like San Jose and future Expansion team Sacramento or Kansas City or St. Louis.

Finally, let’s focus on MLB and give up on MLS it’s in Charlotte it’s over for now MLB has a better chance at coming to Raleigh than this. And Steve Malik thought future investors a lesson don’t go to state property and propose a Stadium and go to city you have a better chance and don’t ask for a tax-subsizdied stadiums privately fund it yourselves, well financially support the backing if the games like transit, advertising, etc.

If MLS comes to Raleigh (which it won’t). Trust me I’ll bet my whole Savings Account $300 currently and nothing beyond that because if I add more money to it that won’t count. That MLS won’t come to Raleigh and if you’re right I’ll pay ya.

[nipper.dwight]

Has anyone heard anything about today’s Wake County Commissioner’s Meeting concerning the soccer stadium ? I would have gone to the meeting but I had a Dr. appointment .

[ralboi919]

I would love to know as well, I think the COVID-19 Situation has put a tamper on things, I think once things return to normal things will speed up Stef Mendell and crew are up to the crying all over again.

[John]

The city council had a report from the JLL consultant yesterday. Apparently it’s the same presentation that was giving to the county commissioners. It’s out on youtube.

[UncleJesse]

For those that want to discount Steve Malik’s ability to pull off an MLS franchise…

https://www.newsobserver.com/sports/spt-columns-blogs/luke-decock/article241456851.html

As a reminder, the other guy on US Soccer’s board is Don Garber, MLS commissioner.

Part of Malik’s strategy is elevating the women’s game. He has a decided advantage with ties to UNC, Anson Dorrance, and the fact that the Courage can pull straight from UNC, State & Duke.

Adding an MLS franchise to Raleigh and a guy who is a big supporter of women’s athletics is a ‘winner’ for MLS optically. Won’t be tomorrow and clearly with all this coronoavirus craziness, things are up in the air for everything…but Malik is methodical in what he’s doing.

Next round of expansion will include Raleigh…assuming we have a stadium, of course.

[GavinLivesRaleigh]

Okay but they’ve really haven’t he joined officially just a rejoin, right now a lot of thing U.S. Soccer gotta do is cleaning up there reputation. MLS is not their focus right now, and furthermore adding to that there not sure if MLS should have that much influence in 5 years.

[Street_Grid]

Interesting article. I knew about the fanbase and success of college clubs here in the Triangle, but didn’t know about all of those business connections.

Raleigh makes so much sense for an MLS team, just need an ownership group with deeper pockets. Would be cool for MLS to be the first top level sports league with two teams in North Carolina. A Raleigh-Charlotte rivalry is fun to think about.

In the meantime we can continue to build the following for one of the very best pro women’s teams in the world.

[John]

The Rise of the Stadium District

A new video that’s not only timely, but actually gives PNC/Carter Finley a “shout out” of sorts, but not in a positive way. This video doesn’t try to answer all the questions, but it does question public funding for privately held entities that own sports franchises.

[nipper.dwight]

Thanks John for sharing this video . I still favor Public / Private Funding for our stadium . The Mudcats stadium was public / private funded & I have been told that Durham Bulls stadium was Wake County public funds used for their stadium .

[John]

Wow. If Durham received public money from Wake to build DBAP, then that beats all. With the way that Durham touts itself like it’s on some sort of island, I’d ask for my money back.

[Alan]

It was funded by Durham, not Wake.

[GavinLivesRaleigh]

I commented on the video, interesting since Tom Dumdon wants a downtown stadium for the Canes. What about if a black billionaire or one of color helps us bring MLB or MLS to Raleigh how would you react.

[OakCityDylan]

I’m not following. What does race have to do with this? Why would it matter?

[Will]

I think we’d all be ecstatic if any race billionaire wanted to bring MLB or MLS to Raleigh.

[dtraleigh]

Yes, please elaborate.

[John]

As much as I’d like to see a billionaire step up to the plate to establish a major sport venue downtown, I think that I’d rather see one step up to help address any long term financial fallout from this virus. There are going to be a lot of people in great need out of no fault of their own.

[GavinLivesRaleigh]

I mean Robert L. Johnson, and now Micheal Jordan does that what I mean Robert helped being the then Bobcats back to Charlotte he a billionaire and former foundr of BET Black Entertainment Television.