You are most welcome for the site/link.
I have been using this site for a couple of years now and have even mentioned it in comments in the previous format but it probably got buried. I am glad that you and others are enjoying using the tool. I’ve used the tool to inform a lot of my comments here and on City-Data where I also actively participate in the forums.
My entire point of this thread was to dispel the myth that DT Raleigh is too small to be competitive. I see nothing but opportunity when I am in Raleigh, and I suppose that’s what Amazon saw as well when they toured.
The UDO doesn’t exclude going beyond the set heights. It just allows developers to be assured that a minimum height can be guaranteed before they make land purchases. Especially in the very core, I expect time will prove that developers will ask for height/floor count variances when land costs rise to the point that current limits do not allow for an economically feasible project.
That said, I wholeheartedly support a stepped down approach in height limits on DT’s edges where it meets existing residential neighborhoods to its east and west. The UDO that’s in place assures that a healthy debate between residents and developers has to occur if a perceived out of scale project is proposed to exceed the UDO.
Some might not like this model, but it is one that provides for some balance. I also suspect that the UDO will be updated in the future to reflect new realities and demand in a just-in-time/as needed basis.
How does the UDO gets updated? What is the process/what kicks it off?
I don’t know that information, but nothing lasts forever. Things change as context changes.
Once the Bus Rapid Transit wraps up they will have to update the plans unless they want the system to fail due to low ridership. It won’t go very few at first.
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How about Raleigh vs. Nashville?
I spent a lot of time in Nashville over the past year. I think we are comparable, however, as has been previously mentioned, our employment center is not downtown, rather RTP. Downtown Nashville is growing like crazy, and traffic is a real headache. It is the biggest city around between Memphis and Knoxville (200 miles away). The similarly sized (maybe larger) Triangle region has 4 major employment centers spread 30 miles apart. Plus we have Wilmington 120 miles to the east, Richmond 150 miles north, and the Triad 80 miles west. Our proximity to other medium sized metros hurts our DT IMO.
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Silicon Valley consists of multiple employment centers scattered among downtown & suburban locations. Our region may better resemble this (successful, though maximized) area (San Jose, SF, Cupertino, Palo Alto etc). We don’t need to be a Charlotte, Nashville or Atlanta. Transit is a must. As time passes, I have my doubts about Apple coming. Our “warts” seem to be exposed. Amazon May be impressed if we make changes In November.
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Silicon Valley has mountains, an ocean and a bay that all help it become more dense. Raleigh has no natural boundaries to prevent sprawl.
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Hm, I’m not seeing what everyone else is. In the case of Miami, I see an extensive urban grid that allows for flexible expansion of downtown, whereas for Raleigh, the grid ends sharply and would require enormous investment to redevelop/extend any sort of walkable urban environment. I agree that there’s a LOT of untapped potential though, and if we fill in the gaps between, say, NC State and downtown proper, the urban part of our city would really start to feel a lot more sizable.
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How so on the BRT failing part? I know the New Bern line will have pretty high ridership.
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Totally agree with lack of grids hurting us.
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Practically the entirety of MiamiDade County is on a grid with streets and avenues numbered. That doesn’t mean that it’s all urban or that it all can become urban. Most of those gridded areas are single family homes. Don’t be fooled by the grid itself as some sort of urban indicator.
There are plenty of successful cities globally that are not on a strict grid. For me, Raleigh’s potential lies in the successful development and redevelopment of available lands in its core and on the edges of it that allow for the core to expand, with or without a grid. For me it’s about sidewalk experience, and those sidewalks are certainly welcome to meander.
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You’re right that a grid doesn’t necessarily = urban, but it is still one of the best indications of the potential for urban development. If you look at most cities, single family homes are often bought out and redeveloped into larger buildings as downtowns expands, and this is in large part driven by a continuous rectilinear grid. I was just in Toronto, so to use it as an example: if you look at the city’s graining, commercial areas line the E-W thoroughfares, and single-family neighborhoods fill the blocks in between them. The density trickles into the residential neighborhoods via urban infill, which makes for a walkable city that extends far beyond downtown. From my (limited) understanding, this is urban planning 101 – a robust urban grid is the framework for a pedestrian-oriented city (including walkability and efficient public transit), while meandering, sparser streets are built for the car and usually lead to suburban sprawl.
Which cities are you thinking of? The only thing that comes to mind for me are the historical inner cities that can be found all over the world, but that kind of density isn’t realistic for Raleigh. I’m wondering if there are any good examples of turning around this kind of suburban sprawl in cities that are built similarly to Raleigh?
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Question…
I know that DTR has the zones that help define the CBD, however how does Raleigh see the Eastern side of DTR? I know that we have a lot of opportunities in that area but at the same time you have a lot of older established neighborhoods? Does DTR keep marching East as the western edge has those horrible railroad tracks?
The Public Land Survey System (PLSS) was created by the Land Ordinance of 1785 to survey land ceded to the United States by the Treaty of Paris in 1783 after the end of the American Revolution. Land surveyed by the PLSS was divided into a rectangular grid system composed of townships and sections.
The original colonies were NOT part of the PLSS. For this reason states like Florida have a vast grid system on the ground whereas land boundaries in states like North Carolina tend to meander because they follow natural topography. Over time roads were built and they tended to follow land ownership boundaries.
In my view the legacy of the old British metes and bounds system is a big reason our state is so much more interesting. It is why today our roads twist and turn and why it can be so difficult for new-comers to learn their way around Raleigh. The grid system in PLSS states such as Florida is horribly mundane by comparison! Think about this the next time you fly between states. Once aware you can see the effect of PLSS on the ground.
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As a resident of eastern downtown, I think it’s time to officially stop thinking of the areas as older established neighborhoods…the older part is almost completely gone, for better or for worse (note I am NOT supporting massive gentrification, simply noting it is mostly a done deal here). It is being re-established as a huge number of houses over $300,000 and infill condos and townhouses. This will be the reason the business district and stuff over 3 stories never goes beyond about Person St in our lifetimes. Anyway, zoning has it that way now, and no variance will ever be granted with the new, big money in control now. You might see some other urban characteristics though, like neighborhood businesses cropping back up…many of those corner stores were demolished as most became just heavy drinking street corners…but if the zoning still allows it, some North Person st like stuff might take root eventually. Lots like the old Big Johns on Edenton, this place on Lenoir or this brick laundromat building on Hargett all will end up with businesses that serve $500,000 houses filling in around them.
This is an interesting point, thanks for bringing it up. But I don’t know that it’s the whole story.
Miami’s grid has more to do with the way it was masterplanned in a similar fashion to Manhattan. This is an interesting quick read.
Moreover, Florida is notorious for suburban sprawl in meandering forms, while almost any urban area even within the thirteen colonies has a rectilinear street grid. I think the bigger issue at play here is the time period of major growth in these cities. Like most postwar suburbs, Raleigh’s major expansions happened after the advent of the car, and we never really established a walkable grid beyond a very small area. Compare Raleigh’s urban fabric to Richmond, which experienced most of its growth before the early 20th century, is a smaller city by population, and has a much more expansive, dense, and pedestrian-oriented grid. I still think the structure of our city beyond downtown proper is our biggest challenge.
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@elevatoroperator. You are correct in that the PLSS isn’t the only factor encouraging a grid system. Master planning efforts in the original colony states certainly led to grids being established and the Christmas plan for Raleigh’s downtown is a good example. Richmond also has a grid system but it is not aligned N-S-E-W as grid systems in other PLSS states would be inclined to be.
My point was to mention the profound effect the PLSS had on growth patterns on a grand scale.
