The service and backstage facilities look pretty jammed in on that plot. I tend to assume they’ve at least thought about the alternatives on a project this big.
2 Likes
That plus there’s significantly less dirt on this property within the City’s control than you’d think between the highway and RR right-of-way. You need space for things other than seats and a stage.
5 Likes
This right here.
I live west of West St, and if all the RR closings happen, Lenoir and South will be the most direct (but out of the way for most people who live over here) routes to get downtown. We mostly walk or bike down Cabarrus if we’re going downtown, so forcing everyone on a longer route is counterintuitive to the reason we live where we do. Removing another connection from the grid is idiotic.
7 Likes
I wouldn’t assume that RCC has thought about anything other than what’s best for RCC, rather than what’s best for the City of Raleigh on the whole.
RCC wants a venue that is as contiguous as possible with the convention center for some imagined synergy between conventions and outdoor concerts.
While this could be pitched as a differentiator and a unique selling point, in reality, the overlap between these two types of events is very small. What, outside of IBMA, has ever done this in Raleigh? There is a reason that this isn’t really a “thing” convention centers do, even the enormous ones with nearly unlimited land to build on like Orlando or Vegas. There are some big ones with arenas or stadiums nearby (Atlanta comes to mind) but I don’t believe this proximity is actually leveraged for more than a few percent of the total events that happen at GWCC - and an outdoor amphitheater is neat, but much more limited in terms of uses compared with a domed football stadium or basketball arena.
And for that small overlap, asking attendees to walk another short block to get there seems like a pretty reasonable thing, when the cost is downtown connectivity.
8 Likes
Wow that’s some extreme West!
Weren’t they saying they’re trying to have good pedestrian and bike access options still? I feel like that would help lessen the sting, even if it’s not open to cars.
3 Likes
Please light your council members’ email inboxes on fire with this message, then! Be a NIMBY about it! Tell them this is unacceptable!
4 Likes
Given the roadway conditions and how people drive on McDowell and Dawson Streets, I believe that scenario 2 would be the safest for all road users. The proposed wide sidewalks and curb extensions will force drivers to slow down, therefore making it safer for everyone. Keeping Lenoir St open will also allow for the grid to stay connected.
Also, this scenario proposes a large increase in seating which is honestly needed given Red Hat’s popularity and convenient location. Plus the orientation of the amphitheater looks like it will improve the overall experience for concertgoers and performers, who will have a better view of the skyline(s).
Overall, I believe there would be more positive than negative outcomes from this scenario. The block between Lenoir and South Streets is not that large. I’m not sure what the traffic volumes are on these streets but I’ve seen more traffic on Lenoir than South St. in this area.
Note: I’ve been living in Boston for 2 years and visit from time-to-time, so things may have changed a lot)
10 Likes
ChatGPT is shaking his/her/their head right now.
3 Likes
I’m surprised nobody on here has mentioned acoustics. I hear musicians really dislike the current echo coming off the shimmer wall/RCC.
So we’re considering this scenario??
I wonder if RCC is even consulting with people intimate and knowledgable about constructing music venues. A venue that’s convenient for RCC but horrible for actually hosting music events doesn’t sound like a win, at all, not to mention the sacrifice we make to our transportation grid.
We can’t put string lights up, but we can close down half of the routes for 1st responders to navigate quickly in a downtown core?
16 Likes
If some people’s commutes take a 2 minute hit because of closing off a road, in exchange for a world class facility. I’m okay with that. Give me the bigger Red Hat.
9 Likes
Holy crap.
I feel like we are victims of a Bait & Switch here. Got all excited about a bigger convention center and upgraded amphitheater and everything. And only NOW they’re saying “Oh by the way, we’re gonna screw up street grid connectivity and cause a traffic nightmare in the process. Hope y’all are ok with that!”. Um…WTF.
I’d like to see them at LEAST do some traffic surveys on how many cars use Lenoir and South each day. As well as how many additional vehicles would be thrown on them if those RR crossings mentioned above ended up happening. If they can PROVE this won’t cause a major congestion and traffic jam, then just maybe people can get on board. But I’m not holding my breath. 
One of the articles mentioned that because Dawson/McDowell are US Hwys, the NCDOT will hafta sign off on whatever the city ultimately does. They will probably be on the skeptical side if the numbers don’t look good.
6 Likes
Is it going to be a traffic nightmare? Lenoir and South are right next to each other and go to the same place, it’s the closest pair of streets on the grid.
6 Likes
Both of those streets have only one lane of traffic each way. If ya close one, you’ll be instantly doubling the traffic on the other. And the way the streetlights are timed, that can cause backups easily 3-4 blocks upstream. If not more.
(Plus as mentioned by other commenters above, there have been plans for years to close the at-grade Rail crossings at Cabarrus and/or Hargett. I don’t think those have been taken into consideration here, assuming those plans haven’t been shelved yet?)
Have you ever been in the area when a show at either the amphitheater or Memorial Auditorium gets out? (Or this past weekend when the graduations were going on.) The traffic on both of those streets trying to get cars to Dawson gets crazzzzzy. Cars in the deck behind Residence Inn get clogged trying to get out. I’ve seen cars backed up on South all the way to McDonalds, and even Salisbury will get backed up.
I’m not saying this is 100% impossible, but to do this, the entire street grid and traffic patterns in this part of downtown will need to be reassessed and go thru a very heavy overhaul, IMHO. That’s the kinda thing NCDOT engineers tend to take years to do when they do it, and it sounds like the city hasn’t barely scratched the surface of such an endeavour. Which is not a good idea no matter which side you’re on.
4 Likes
I feel like one temporary-ish traffic solution would be for the city to disallow Uber or Lyft pickup and drop-offs any of these streets and have two designated areas (Duke Energy Center & somewhere in the Warehouse district). I’m sure that would help, it works for airports that see more traffic (Boston Logan).
2 Likes
The acoustics really do suck at Red Hat. I’ve heard numerous bands there that sounded so muffled and muted compared to other venues I’ve seen them at.
2 Likes
If we put RHA on the other side of the railroad embankment from the big buildings, it would likely have some positive impact on acoustics…
2 Likes
What if we kept RHA where it is, and put the convention center expansion in the small plot instead?
What if instead of a triangle shape, the new RHA was a rectangle that used the entire plot?
What if we closed both Lenoir St and South St and turned them into one-way canals for boats only?
I’ve got a lot of good ideas. I should’ve attended that council meeting.
3 Likes
I love the idea of moving RHA 1 block south. The proposed (middle) site could be a plaza for food trucks etc connecting the RCC & RHA. Entry would have to go under the 2 RR bridges & as previously said, deal with ncdNOt.
The site is 1.61 AC, owned by the city of Raleigh and values at $16M.
2 Likes
If we cut off South St, we’ll only need to chop off East Street somewhere to have all of our directional street names be feckless.
3 Likes
I do know that at some point the land between Dawson/Mcdowell south of South St was the leading candidate for a new Raleigh Fire Department headquarters and station. However, recently a different site has been chosen, and as far as I know, nothing else has ever been planned, proposed, or even discussed there.
Even the 2004 visioning study examining the potential for city-owned lots near the convention center was extremely bearish on the potential presented by this spot:
An amphitheater seems like the perfect use for this rather odd lot, and the lot seems like a perfect fit for an amphitheater.
Come on guys. Figure it out!
2 Likes