Not sure what you’re talking about here. RCC and RHA are both owned by the City of Raleigh. The city is effectively negotiating with itself here.
If this plan doesn’t go through due to pressure by Livable Raleigh and others, there is a real real chance that RHA is gone for good.
This isn’t a high pressure sales situation at all. It’s the reality of what’s happening.
Different silos within a larger entity compete for clout and funding all the time.
The director of RCC’s job is to advocate for and do what’s best for RCC. Whoever runs RHA is responsible for that. The planning commission is supposed to consider items like the street grid and urban form. They don’t all speak with one coherent voice. It is up to City Council to balance among the different voices and competing interests (yes, competing! Even within the city government itself!) and vote accordingly.
Governments open things up and shut things down all the time. If it was a private dealer negotiating with the city, you might have a point. This is still the city negotiating with itself. All the money and land is coming out of the same bucket. The city council has all the power and all the final say.
This is government. If you table something, it’s going to take a long long long time to come back. I understand that you don’t like or want a better deal, but I promise you that if you wait for that, you might as well be killing the golden goose.
Just asking but is capacity a consideration here? RHA seems small for the flagship outdoor venue in a major market. What percentage of shows sell out? Seems like we’re losing the biggest acts to Walnut Creek.
I don’t think there’s any such thing as a “flagship” outdoor venue for our market. There are multiple outdoor venues of different sizes, and they’re not competing for the same acts.
Walnut Creek competes with places like PNC Music Pavilion in Charlotte. Red Hat competes with Rabbit Rabbit in Asheville and Live Oak Bank in Wilmington. There is no other venue that fills the 5-7000 capacity niche in our local market. And that capacity is a sweet spot for a lot of acts – most of the artists I listen to will never play a venue bigger than Red Hat. I’ve been to dozens of shows there over a couple decades in the Triangle, while I’ve only been to Walnut Creek once. It’s too big, and the acts that play it usually are too.
Y’all are still forgetting that sending critically important stuff back to the drawing board actually can make it better. Just because it’s critically important, does not mean we should just hold our breath, hold our noses, be too afraid to ask any questions, and say yes to anything and everything on the spot.
“Bbbut… mean old Durham will steal our lunch!! Like they did with DPAC!”… as far as I have seen, nothing remotely like this is currently proposed in Durham at all? Where are you guys even coming up with that story?
Case in point: Dix Park. Original plan had a decent chunk of the park’s outer edge, such as where Gipson is under construction today, set aside for commercial development. Then, the Dix 306 people (who some on here branded as NIMBYs) fought that plan. They made the argument that a coherent park with hard edges is better, and the development belongs across the street. And turns out, they were right! I think the vision for Dix pretty clearly got better with that change.
Again, some were worried that sending it back to the drawing board was basically studying it to death. Dix Park would fall through, and the state would sell it off wholesale to a developer. Raleigh would suffer a failure of ambition and vision, and the idea would die.
But no, at the cost of a year or so delay, we have a larger park with greater potential, a better plan, and a new burgeoning urban neighborhood across the street that will connect it with downtown!
So, in conclusion, sometimes by taking the first offer on the table, you are missing out on something better.
We just need to calm down, take a level headed look at what’s on the table, and make sure that it happens - but make sure it’s as good as it can be.
Ok, I think I’ve said enough, I’ll cut it out now.
I don’t think there are many people beyond a handful here on the forum such as yourself who think this plan of moving the RHA one block south and closing one block of roadway is a “hold your nose” plan. Seems like the vast majority here support the plan, although we get it: …you do not like the plan…I think that ship has sailed, though.
Cosmetic and “vibe-y” comment: I do wish they’d move the shimmer wall one block south along with the amphitheater location. It merely screens the utility equipment on the RCC building…Seems like it’d be easy to relocate it to the parking garage, even though that’s not as long of a wall as RCC. It’s just decorative, and they could replace it at the RCC with something functional that won’t be visible much after construction anyway. I retract my preference though, if the RCC addition is super low height and doesn’t obstruct the shimmer wall prominence. I wish there was a rendering showing the view from the new RHA back towards the shimmer wall after the RCC expansion is done. If there is one, someone please post.
Yeah, honestly the potential to lose the shimmer wall (or obstruct its view from most places) is a much bigger issue to me than potentially closing car access for a street I hardly ever drive on.
Part of that vision, according to Amey and city officials, includes an indoor-outdoor sports complex, a new convention center, more family-friendly attractions, and expanded greenways and parks.
Recommended initiatives in this plan include:
Wouldn’t surprise me if they eventually add an outdoor amp to the plan eventually.
Any bigger and the best acts won’t perform there because they can’t fill it. I have no interest in 90% of what gets booked at Walnut Creek. Look at their upcoming lineup - Styx? Hootie and the Blow fish? Creed??? WTF? No thanks. Some of the best shows Ive been to recently are only coming to town because of Red Hat - Nine Inch Nail, Queens of the Stone Age, Coheed, Lamb of God, etc…
Yup, I want to see three shows this fall and two of them are at Red Hat: Jason Isbell is playing DPAC, but Vampire Weekend and Sturgill Simpson are at RHA.
I have not heard one voice on here happy about closing the street.
Plenty are OK with closing the street, if that’s what it takes to keep and improve the amphitheater. I would probably agree with it too, if it really is the only way to keep RHA downtown!
But what I think is actually happening here is that the city is being some combination of hasty or lazy, and not even seriously considering alternatives that don’t close any streets. Or if they have considered them, they have not had any public discussion, or shared any documentation of that process (reports, meeting minutes, whatever.) It gives the impression that someone in a board room somewhere said “RHA has to be in the block right next to RCC, regardless of collateral damage” and that was that. If that isn’t what happened, then share the receipts!
Even with all that, Durham is still years away from having a concrete plan on the table for a new convention center. They don’t even have a location nailed down yet!
And there is very little synergy between amphitheaters and convention centers. Don’t get me wrong, it is a creative idea as a differentiator, but it provides little value (for the cost) in the end because so few events will take advantage of it. So there is no reason at all to think that Durham would do that, other than that they are maliciously scheming to copy and undermine everything Raleigh does (spoiler: they are not.)
So, while the amphitheater is very valuable to the city, it provides little added advantage as a CC amenity. And everything about having an amphitheater nearby as a CC differentiator/amenity still applies just as strongly if it is 2 blocks away from the CC instead of 1.
So unless we are very, extremely paranoid about Durham, there is little reason to rush this process. Let’s get it right.
Sturgill is at Koka Booth
Lol well never mind then!
Yes, the planners and RHA representatives at the event they hosted recently, stressed that the main goal is to increase the capacity of the amphitheater instead of decreasing the capacity or keeping the same capacity. If the amphitheater is any smaller, more artists will choose to go elsewhere (places with a capacity of 6k or higher), Koka Booth being a great example.
This is why there are limited options in terms of land downtown. The lot just south of the proposed lot that people keep mentioning is not big enough for RHA or RCC’s vision for this asset. Other possible locations would be in locations outside of downtown proper which make them unviable.
Also, has anyone against the current plan weighed the cost of losing the amphitheater in downtown over losing South St.? Which would be worse and why? @orulz
Damn Phil every time I go out on a limb for you (re: Buffalo pizza) you gotta do me like this?? I’ve had my Creed tix for over a year now (I think, whenever they went onsale) along with like 20+ homies and we’re planning on getting white-trash-drunk on the lawn and sing/crying along to every song. Why do you hate fun, Phil???
Frankly, I’m a big fan of urbanizing South Raleigh by extending the downtown grid southward. This plan would include creating a new, extended multi-use Fayetteville Street where the currently underused Wilmington/I-70 highway is located. If Raleigh could acquire all the Shaw Uni property behind the performance art center and eliminate the Wilmington Street curve, it would provide ample space to build a massive open-air amphitheater without compromises.
One can only dream.
If I were in Raleigh, I’d 
come scream at the top of my lungs @ Creed songs with you guys. Takes me back to a great time in life!
I don’t hate fun, I’ll get white trash drunk anytime just not at a Creed concert.