Red Hat Amphitheater and Outdoor Music

The Pub
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I’m curious to know what the convention center people think of this. I would guess that having the amphitheater right across the street allows for a more interesting pitch to event organizers. It’s been published multiple times that conventions want “large hotels within walking distance of the convention center”. Walking distance is relative cause what they really mean is “spitting distance” but fine.

My guess would be that some conventions might be tempted to use the amphitheater in addition to some convention space. That’s a nice win and higher use of our resources. When in Dix, I don’t think we would get that.

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Not to mention that one of the talking points about DT over the last 1-2 years is how to better connect DTR and Dix Park. If you opt to put an Amphitheater at Dix, you also have to incorporate that type of connectivity into the plan - along with parking lots/decks at Dix. Seems like at the very least it would push back the timeline for a new Amphitheater considerably.

Edit: New post from Raleigh Magazine about this - includes emails of the council members.

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What’s this connectivity to Dix that they’re talking about RHA interrupting? Is there some great plan in the works? Connectivity between DTR and Dix currently stinks and this being relocated a block south doesn’t change it for better or worse, IMO.

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No idea. Sounds like a made up talking point to try and get people on board with putting a potential Red Hat replacement at Dix Park. Closing that portion of South St does nothing to negatively impact any perceived connectivity currently existing between DTR and Dix.

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I saw this brought up in 2019 in this thread and re-visting not as a Red Hat replacement but in general. Halifax Mall is a large green space located with direct access to Fayetteville St/Downtown, Seaboard, Smoky Hallow/Glenwood and Person St district. There is a sea of parking surrounding it and easily manageable ingress and egress to the green itself.

Completely anecdotal but seems very underutilized, has there every been any type of concert, outdoor movie, market, play, etc. there? I know occasionally rallies/protests are held there.

Quick likely innacurate google maps reference for scale:

halifax
halifax896×719 100 KB

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I agree, I would love to develop some of that space for literally anything, but we’d have to convince the State of NC to play ball.

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When closing Lenoir was in the table, that would have interrupted the proposed Strollway from Chavis to Dix, but that’s not the proposed street closure now.

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The Legislature, which controls that, takes the following position to anything the City wants or needs: “fuck you”

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We saw what happened the last time a stadium was proposed on state land in that area.

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State doesn’t care about us at all.

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Reports are is they might reroute south street to McDowell to preserve south street and keep the amphitheater downtown. So hope isn’t lost yes it could be a compromise between both groups.

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This is kinda the perfect place for a park. Always popular for field trips to the legislature, and the biggest green area that is immediately accessible from downtown. I think it would be a shame to develop it in anyway, except for a downtown changing project like the stadium would’ve been.

That being said, it could definitely be utilized more. But I don’t know who would advocate for that since it’s an open space managed by the state.

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When I lived in the Elan, my friends and I used it a lot. The new Seaboard residents probably will as well. Just needs more nearby residents.

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I just had a stream of thoughts about this relocation situation and want to get some feedback from this group before I send to council in another email or post as a comment somewhere or whatever.

At the end of the day, the opposition to this project is not about losing something, it’s not an argument that this relocation is going to be bad for downtown, it’s about personal agendas and potentially adding a few seconds to a car trip in a downtown environment that’s trying to prioritize alternative transportation options. Voting against this relocation is effectively saying, if there’s any detriment to a car trip, we can’t sacrifice that and all else (small businesses, added downtown activation and foot traffic, added tax revenue, desires of those in support) can suffer as a result.

Am I off somewhere with this? Missing something?

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That’s a perfect statement you wrote up. Couldn’t agree more

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I vote for you to send this, this is great! :+1:t4:

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Feel free to :grumpy_cat: me for it but I think there’s an undercurrent of anxiety here over the potential to lose RHA downtown that’s causing people to refuse to ask questions that we should be asking.

This isn’t about car traffic or inconvenience to motorists. What is being lost is not something that traffic counts or capacity studies or LOS or “seconds of delay” can adequately measure.

The street grid is literally what makes downtown, downtown. In the suburbs where stroads and cul-de-sacs reign supreme, there’s only ever one way to get from point A to point B. The permeability, the multiple ways to get from here to there - it lends a multi-dimensionality, especially on foot, that is just outright missing almost everywhere else in the city and region. Instead of just being a collection of destinations, it becomes a space to explore. And Downtown Raleigh’s grid is already pretty coarse, in comparison with almost any other city I’ve visited to begin with. So, I really think we need to be more careful than this when we’re talking about giving even a small piece of that up.

Ok, so there isn’t much down there today that’s worth exploring. The convention center and the Mariott, even RHA itself, are mostly dead zones on non-event days. There are parking decks, empty lots, abandoned car care centers, obsolete public housing, etc… but that’s today. You have to look past today. This is the area between downtown and Dix, development is popping already. If Glenwood South was the “it” zone for DTR for the last 25 years, this area is going to be the it zone for the next 25.

Now, I get that RHA is a really important attraction downtown. I don’t want to lose it!
But at this point, the RHA’s new location is literally just some lines in a CAD - super easy to change. But once the street is gone, it’s gone forever.

I’ve only ever seen two possibilities so far in public materials, close Lenoir or close South. They just need to pick some other city-owned locations, and do a massing study, do anything at all to show us that they’ve done their due diligence and there is no alternative.

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I appreciate that perspective Owen and I don’t disagree. The message being delivered now seems to be that of, this needs to happen now otherwise it’s a goner. The process you mention is solid and presumably some of that was done, but I’m not sure what options/sites were considered. I don’t believe they want to consider a site that’s not within very close proximity to the RCC. Not sure if they considered the lot just to the other side of the tracks that we’ve been discussing here.

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Thank you for mentioning this and I agree because at first I hated the idea of disrupting the grid. It still doesn’t warm my heart, but I like that a tunnel is still possible in the future to reconnect the grid, and the pedestrian improvements all around RHA in the new plan are huge upgrades. While not my favorite idea in the world (my vote is tunnel right now, but it’s cost prohibitive), it’s not worth losing RHA over.

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Standard high pressure sales tactic.

RCC is driving this and they want what’s best for RCC (which is RHA right next to RCC), not what’s best for the city.

If we buy it 100% and don’t even try to negotiate we are sure to get taken for a ride. So far, nothing has ever even been considered other than alternatives that have RHA and RCC right next to each other and require closing a street. I am strongly suspicious that there are better possibilities. But we have no idea, nobody has even considered them!

Don’t be fooled. RCC wants RHA to stay downtown as well. “Commit to this plan right now, or it’s gone!” is a bluff. RHA is a dedicated, standalone performance venue, not an ancillary facility of RCC. Don’t be held hostage, the city needs to assume a stronger negotiating position, and call the bluff!

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