Haven’t been in a few years but that was not always my experience over there. Plus those are both major airports. But do agree you can get some good deals on flights in Europe.
Or at least competitive enough to drive time that it pulls people away from driving. If a train trip is faster than driving, yes, it’s the obvious choice for most people (but I don’t think we’re going to see that on nearly any route in the US any time soon). That being said, if Raleigh to Wilmington is only about 30-45min longer than driving (as projected here), you’re still going to pull from the driving crowd that sees the perks of not worrying about traffic, bathrooms breaks, fast food drive throughs, and the like.
On the flipside, that Asheville route is going to be a touristy thing for folks who genuinely enjoy trains and see the journey to be as valuable as the destination. Which is fine (I mean, it works great for routes like the California Zephyr and the Empire Builder), but it’s not really going to compete with driving.
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I wonder how much the “rail cruise” audience figures into their yield management and route planning. The NC mountains are filled with prime Amtrak first-class passengers, i.e., retirees.
For someone living beyond driving distance, Asheville is dang near impossible to get to as-is – flights into AVL are scarce, flights into CLT are pricey, and then you still need the whole rental-car rigmarole and several hours in a car… which would just be parked most of the time anyways, as downtown Asheville is exceptionally compact. Each time I’ve looked into it, it ended up being time-competitive to drive to AVL from DC.
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For interest’s sake, here is the Southern RR’s 1970 era Asheville Special timetable.
4 hours between Asheville and Salisbury, but it includes 8 extra stops along the way:
- Azalea
- Swannanoa
- Ridgecrest
- Glen Alpine
- Valdese
- Connelly Springs
- Conover
- Newton
Cutting 8 stops should save a good bit more than 15 minutes.
While the time on the slow, winding mountain climb between Old Fort and Ridgecrest is actually faster than I would have expected (13.3mi, 29min, → 27mph), some of the straight, wide-open sections (like Statesville - Newton) seem a little slow (23.2mi, 37min → 37mph). So assuming the mountain section actually is possible at the speed suggested by the old timetable, and that the rest of the line can be sped up to an average of, say, 45mph (including stops) that would make the journey in 3h 15m. Get the non-mountain speeds up to 50mph average, and that’s 3h flat.
2.5 hours from Raleigh to Salisbury, and 3 hours from Salisbury to Asheville, for a final journey time of 5.5 hours is… better, but still a bit long, TBH. The timetable goal could be to make a 2-day weekend with a single night’s stay worth it:
- Leave Raleigh early AM Saturday, arrive Asheville before lunch
- Leave Asheville Sunday after an early dinner, arrive in Raleigh by midnight
That’d be possible with a 5.5 hour journey time, but just barely.
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You know how the interstate highway system started out as a national defense initiative? I saw this article…
…and started wondering if we can use some of that overloaded defense budget to establish a national defense network for rail. Rail-based military transport is apparently still a very real need today, and it seems like they have some reasons to start making more targeted investments.
This article from a military-focused news site that summarized some of the recommendations better:
Could this be an opportunity for SEHSR and other potentially-big corridors? SEHSR, CSX, NS, and NCRR all go through Raleigh and connect to major military bases in North Carolina. If there’s a way to convince them to chip in, I wonder if some of our intercity rail needs could be met faster?
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All the major military bases in NC are in the eastern part of the state, so I wouldn’t expect much impact if any at all in the piedmont or mountains. And there would be very little crossover benefit with high speed or commuter rail.
But if there’s one thing such an effort could really help to get off the ground in NC, it’s reactivation of the rail line from Goldsboro to Wilmington. I recall reading that military logistics were a primary reason for that reactivation in the first place, and that definitely has utility as a possible passenger corridor as well.
Beyond that, there are other possibilities, but reopening and upgrading that line is the one thing that would really be a home run for defense interests
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Hmm… I thought Camp Mackall near Southern Pines (which is on the S-line) would be nice to be connected to even if they’re not as big as Ft. Bragg, but I guess they’re more minor than I thought. But yeah, I guess Goldsboro-Wilmington could benefit, as well. That’s the part of the Amtrak revitalization plan in our state that needs the longest amounts of new rail, too, so that works out great.
Maybe the military could also help with the next phase of that intercity rail study between Raleigh and Fayetteville?
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Military Ocean Terminal Sunny Point is ginormous (it’s the largest munitions terminal in the country!). Ever wonder why the southern portion of Pleasure Island (Carolina Beach, Kure Beach, and Fort Fisher) is less developed than the northern half? That’s the ESCZ (explosives safety clear zone) for Sunny Point in action…
At any rate, Sunny Point is heavily rail-dependent, and the fact that there is only one rail route in and out, across flat, low-lying ground, that is prone to flooding, seems like it should be scandal-grade problematic.
Back when it was built, the Atlantic Coast Line (which was headquaretered in Wilmington) had five routes in and out of town - but today there’s only the one. Seems like almost an Achilles heel when it comes to military readiness.
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Minor point… strictly speaking, ACL had only 4 routes into Wilmington. The 5th, still in use, was SAL.
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Don’t know where else to put this, thought this thread seems appropriate as I think it’ll have some impact with commuter rail in Raleigh. Got this email from the Town of Apex people. If anyone who’s active or lurking on the boards wants to participate I’ve shared the details too:
The Town of Apex is a partner in a regional study, led by the North Carolina Department of Transportation’s Integrated Mobility Division, to prepare communities along the “S-Line” for the possibility of future passenger rail service. The S-Line includes the railroad corridor that extends from Richmond to Charlotte, through Apex. While there is currently no funding to begin new passenger rail service along this corridor, the Town’s Transit Plan Map and the region’s Metropolitan Transportation Plan anticipate future passenger rail stations in the downtown area and the area between US 1, NC 540, and NC 55 known as “Veridea”. This study will help Apex prepare for the future by evaluating opportunities for transit-oriented development (TOD) that are sensitive to community context, preserve existing assets, and build on the recent Downtown Plan. Sanford, Raleigh, Wake Forest, Franklinton, Henderson and Norlina are also participating in the study.
Input Opportunity
As the Study’s year-long community engagement begins, NCDOT is seeking initial community input to inform the S-Line TOD Study. Please share your thoughts by:
- Stopping by the NCDOT “pop-up” booth at the Rotary Club Pancake Breakfast this Saturday, December 4th between 8:00 am - 10:00 am. The booth will be outside in front of the Fire Station at 210 N Salem Street, so you do not need tickets for the breakfast to participate (but we highly recommend supporting the Apex community and enjoying a terrific breakfast!). The pop-up will include information about the study and opportunities to share your thoughts about Apex.
- Completing the online survey at https://www.surveymonkey.com/r/6LPKRDJ. The information and questions on the survey reflect what will be shared at the pop-ups. The survey will remain open through early 2022.
Additional information about the S-Line and TOD are also available at the survey link. Future opportunities for engagement will be shared with subscribers to this email list
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First thing I notice is, why TF is Cary not participating? Were they invited? It’s about 6 miles from downtown Apex to downtown Cary and I’d expect to see at least one intermediate station and perhaps as many as three.
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That’s a good question and I’m not sure. You would have to think Cary and Apex are all communicating on something as important as this, but we all know whenever politics/bureaucracy is involved sometimes common sense/rationale go out the window.
My guess is because the S-Line overlaps with NCRR for most of Cary’s town limits, so they’re probably working with GoTriangle already on TOD planning. Working with NCDOT on the same could be seen as redundant.
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Putting this here @ahops0428 and while this doesn’t say SEHSR, let’s maybe expand the scope of this thread to include the S-Line.
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So, whoever runs the RAIL Magazine Twitter account mocked up a schedule for future VA/NC Amtrak service, based on combining VA/NC’s current workplans with current Northeast Corridor slots:
Shows nine trains per day per direction calling at Raleigh, with five new daily roundtrips (four “Southeast Regional” via the S-Line and one additional Piedmont). Explanatory thread:
The Google Docs preview above isn’t showing for me, so
Here's the Washington DC - Raleigh timetable
Southbound
06:10-10:35
09:10-1:35p
11:10-3:35p
4:45p-9:05p
7:20p-11:35p
Northbound
06:34-10:50
10:34-2:50p
12:04p-4:30p
3:34p-7:50p
7:34p-00:00
and here's the Raleigh - Charlotte timetable
Southbound
06:30-09:20
08:30-11:20
10:35-1:05p
12:00p-2:50p
1:35p-4:25p
3:35p-6:25p
5:30p-8:20p
9:05p-11:55p
Northbound
07:45-10:34
09:15-12:04p
11:00-1:50p
12:45p-3:34p
3:00p-5:50p
4:45p-7:34p
7:00p-9:50p
9:00p-11:50p
From Raleigh, you could
Commute to downtown Durham: 8:30-9:01 + 5:19p-5:50p
Go to DPAC or Bulls: 5:30p-6:01p + 9:19p or 11:19p return
Day trip to DC: arrive at 10:50, return at 4:45p or 7:20p
Overnight to the Northeast Corridor: trains 1166/1167 are timed to connect to 66/67, which arrives in Boston in the morning & departs in the evening – or arrives/departs NYP after a long night out 
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2030 sounds so far away, but it isn’t really…
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I just want “a midnight train going anywhere*”
*back to Raleigh from Durham
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Not quite - but it definitively would kill all chances of high speed rail between New York and Atlanta stopping in downtown Raleigh along the way.
It could conceivably still happen, but it would be much later and would probably just stop at RDU or perhaps downtown Durham instead.
I am really hoping that the Infrastructure Bill will at least allocate some money for corridor acquisition on this route. In addition to this row of properties downtown, there are other places where curve realignments are planned, including a few crucial ones in the rapidly suburbanizing stretch between Raleigh and Franklinton. These realignments make the difference betwen this being an actual high speed route, or just another Amtrak train.
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I definitely appreciate that you know more about this, but the high-speed train could still run through this corridor but not stop at Union Station? That makes no sense to me. Is speed the issue? - because the curves over Capital Blvd and Wade area would seem to impact speeds more and the train would already be decelerating to/from the station anyway.
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Oh, guess I didn’t explain well enough.
First off, NCDOT’s plan assumes almost zero cooperation from Norfolk Southern. This is a very real possibility.
So, first and foremost, this route is the only shot we have at putting dedicated passenger tracks through downtown Raleigh without running into the brick wall of uncooperative freight RR’s.
Next, the actual existing right of way pinches down to 66 feet. So no, not quite 100’ to work with.
Even assuming RR cooperation, whether the final product can be accommodated in a 66’-100’ corridor, is a separate question from whether it would be feasible to construct it if the corridor were wedged in by tall buildings on both sides, while maintaining the ability for Norfolk Southern to run freight trains in and out of their yard during construction. If it is feasible at all, phasing this construction would be fantastically expensive.
Lastly is the hope of me and some others on here (admittedly just a pipe dream perhaps), that this new rail route could be built with four tracks instead of two, freight trains moved onto it, and both of the existing rail routes (and at least part of the yards) heading north of downtown repurposed. The Norfolk-Southern route would be a fantastic way to bring a High Line-style trail right into the core of downtown. The CSX route would (in my opinion) be great as a street connection to open up the rail yard area behind Logan’s for development. All a pipe dream, yes. But if even a small portion of this can be implemented- wow! WAY more important than another hotel getting built at the corner of West & Tucker.
Now, I am definitely in favor of trying to build this in a way that leaves a strip of land along West Street that can be developed. But this needs to happen with left over land after construction is complete. If the strip of land is too narrow to develop, they need to put retail spaces under the new bridge.
In my estimation, this is also the only shot we have at a RR route up to the edge of downtown that could be called “high speed”. If this corridor goes away, my guess is that they’d eithwr have to make big compromises on speed, which might not matter that much for Raleigh’s sake, but kills the case for sending Atlanta-Washington trains through downtown Raleigh. To get travel times high enough to make ATL-DC a practical rail journey, they’d have to bypass downtown entirely along 540, or perhaps even bypass Raleigh altogether and follow I-85.
Unfortunately if I am having this much trouble convincing you guys of how important it is to preserve this corriodor (to the point of blocking a hotel, that could go on literally hundreds of other similarly sized lots downtown) I am sincerely concerned that we’re basically f***ed.
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