South Park Neighborhood - Warehouses, Old Greyhound, and Cargill Site

I guess I am just curious on people’s preference to have to walk up to the third floor to “arrive” at their condo unit as opposed to using a shared building elevator and interior corridors. In New York a lot of people live in a 4-5 story walk-up and it’s manageable, but ultimately an elevator serviced building commands higher rent or sale price.

Looking at the 2015 project around 511 N Person St, the upper unit is only commanding $304/sf https://www.redfin.com/NC/Raleigh/511-N-Person-St-27604/unit-203/home/109595147

There is also the discussion on their average unit size, why have a 2,000+ SF urban 3 bedroom, realistically how much of that space is being occupied during the day vs how much is just bonus area.

Good question regarding buyer preference. At this stage of my life having at least a patch of grass I can step onto within a few steps of leaving my home is key so it’s hard for me to put myself in the frame of mind of one of these buyers. Any comparison to an urban buyer in New York (or similar city) may be a long putt since those folks are largely buying the amenity of a true carless, culture filled experience while a buyer at this location in Raleigh’s downtown is largely buying an ‘urban setting.’ Expectations are different. Heck in this instance one, of the biggest amenities is the direct access to 40 (and the rest of the Triangle) within 3 min of pulling out of your driveway.

With that said, to your point, I am sure there are some that don’t prefer the walk up to your front door experience (can’t say I would) but I can say the addition of the elevators add cost and reduce livable SF (corridors) which are two of the most desirable attributes of this project and product style.

Interested to hear more about what you’re getting at in the comparison to the sf cost at the person st. project. Are you comparing it to the lower cost per sf here at the Grey?

As far as the larger 2k SF units go, I think that one is always simply - the more SF options you have, the better. It think it absolutely invites the opportunity for families and even roommates (depending on the layout) that desire the urban setting…

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I’ll tell you what eats up square footage; it’s all those stairs!
I’ll take the bait and say that I wouldn’t want to walk two flights of (presumably dark) internal stairs just to reach my first living level. I also wouldn’t want to move stuff up and down them, and I wouldn’t want to carry groceries up them.

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Line all elevators with stairs! :wink:
And make most of the elevators from glass so that we can see in and out!
image

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I agree that most people would prefer having a patch of grass just steps from their home. However, this isn’t always practical. For instance, residents of The Grey condos on the third floor must go down two flights of stairs to reach the grass, unlike a single-family home or townhome with direct outdoor access. In a typical three-story condo, a resident on the top floor walks out their door, takes a few steps to a shared staircase, and then reaches the outdoors. Is it the private nature of the stairs that’s appealing?

I like the term “urban setting” because it highlights the downsides of both suburban and urban living. You have the density of an urban area (with another unit just 30 feet away) but limited walkability and green space. At the same time, like a suburban setting, a car is necessary to get around.

The need for a car turns properties into interchangeable options: someone with a 20-minute commute could live anywhere with a similar drive time. This is how sprawl takes hold, leading to congested roadways.

Comparing The Grey to the Person Street condos, they are essentially the same product but differ in location and age. The Person Street neighborhood is priced higher, with a ground floor unit at 531 Person listed at $417 per square foot, versus $304 per square foot for an upper unit.

Regarding unit size, a well-designed 1,600-square-foot three-bedroom can feel more spacious than a poorly designed 2,200-square-foot one. While more space is often desirable for families or roommates, developers often use extra square footage to cover costs. For example, adding 600 square feet to a 1,600-square-foot unit might cost a developer $30,000, but they could charge an extra $140,000—yielding a substantial profit. The question is, where do you stop? Do you create a 2,800-square-foot three-bedroom? As a society, we seem to value quantity over quality, leading to overconsumption and waste.

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I agree that layout is super important. My house is only ~1350 sqft but it feels quite a bit larger than many 1600-1900sqft houses I’ve been in. With just myself and my spouse, the house has almost 1/3 of the space dedicated to the master suite. I actually think we have a larger master than most of my friends houses, and we love it

Of note for urban setting (as someone who lives in South Park), I think part of the reason you would buy here is hedging on expanding walkable and very short drive options in the next 5-10 years, which isn’t too crazy when considering buying. And the prices for those condos are very compelling today, imo

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City Hike

Each set of units appears to be in a different stage of construction, with the innermost being the furthest along

From the greenway:

From Garner Rd:

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Summit at Sawyer

These are looking darn-near complete to me. From what we could tell there were painters working inside

Toulon Place

These are coming along quite well too, although not quite as far along as the Summit units

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South Heights

One from Garner Rd:

From… well, Sawyer and McMakin

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New ASR for a pretty sizeable low-income senior apartment building at 500 Hoke Street

https://community.dtraleigh.com/t/the-raleigh-wire-service/748/2376?u=oakcityyimby

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Nice to see development over there, and esp low-income/for seniors…but kind of disappointed that it’s not some neat commercial development/something that would repurpose the existing space into something cool. When Brewery Bhavana opened their brewing space over there 10 years ago I really hoped that part of town would start to transform with more similar spaces (similar to Pershing Rd in Five Points with Neuse River/Nickelpoint)

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There’s nothing existing. It’s in the open field. It’s not touching the warehouses.

500 Hoke St. Unless this has previously been demolished

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That’s fine, I’m just saying - there’s not a ton of land this close to downtown that is large enough to support substantive commercial developments…obviously poor and old folks need a place to live, and I’m not saying they should be displaced/sent way out to the exurbs…but was just hoping to continue the vibe set by Brewery Bhavana and the ghost kitchen over there and have something a bit more interesting than what’s likely to be a pretty plain senior living development with a large surface parking lot

That’s been demolished. It’s currently an empty lot

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I hear that. But better chance of a mixed-use warehouse district growing toward the west than toward the east which is exclusively residential.

I hear you but, there’s really no “vibe” set by Brewery Bhavana. It’s not an active/open location, it’s the back-of-house operations for the downtown location. It’s not open to the public. This area remains a warehouse and work area.

I’d be interested to know if Mt. Peace Baptist, the church that owns the property on the southern half of this block, is ever going to do anything with their land. Their church and school are over at the corner of Raleigh Blvd and MLK and I can’t imagine they’re ever expecting to move, since that site is much larger than the land here (which is a contaminated brownfield requiring mitigation anyway). That might be a potential location for some kind of community service-style commercial.

Or, maybe the north corner of Hoke at Garner will finally develop? That’s been empty for at least 25 years, now owned by an LLC that doesn’t own anything else.

This particular lot assemblage, though, has been put together by Passage Home over the last ten years with the explicit purpose of putting in this specific type of housing. So they’re doing what they’ve been planning to do since before anyone thought the neighborhood was going to be in need of some commercial space.

Bottom line if we’re gonna be disappointed in anything, it’s got to be in the Person St Apartments proposed for the non-gas-station portion of the Person/Branch/Blount/Hoke block. That used to be planned commercial.

The city owns a bunch of single lots sprinkled around this area, including several along Bragg and the lot at the corner of East and Branch. Presently they are attached to the city housing or community development departments, but it’s all the same ownership. I don’t know if there is or has been any cohesive plan for those lots; perhaps new affordable housing? But at the scale of single lots I’m not sure what can really be done. Perhaps the city can be persuaded to rezone some of those single lots for neighborhood commercial before selling them for development.

My dream, when I looked to buy one of those houses Monarch put up across the street about 8 years ago (didn’t end up pulling the trigger) was for Bhavana to open a taproom, the ghost kitchen to maybe open a pickup window or something, and to actually activate this whole section and turn it into something like they’ve done in Scott’s Addition in Richmond (formerly industrial, with some remaining industrial use, but more focus on active retail and commercial use)…I think the bones and neighborhood is there for it. Maybe having these apartments will help. I want to reiterate - I’m not opposed to these apartments, I’m glad that more affordable units are being built…I just had big dreams for this part of town and seems like they are on-hold for a while longer

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Is there a thread here that explains where all the people with this new density—at the prices they are commanding—are working? where are all these people being hired? is it ITB or much more scattered? any data?

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This thread details some of the big announcements over the past few years, but most slow growth doesn’t come with a big PR push like these get. One thing to keep in mind is that Raleigh has a high percentage (25%) of workers who work from home. One recent article claimed we had the 2nd-highest percentage of WFH workers out of all US cities. So many of the people buying these could be working anywhere. I’d bet that the number is even higher than 25% among downtown residents.

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