I mean, you already have Green St down to Water Works so 3/4 of the work is already in place, I don’t think this would be that far fetched.
But I’m 100% with you on West St. Having another direct corridor into downtown would only help spur further development, connectivity and visibility of downtown.
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I’ve always been of the mind that it’s better to design a road for the speed you want instead of just slapping up a speed limit sign and expecting people to obey. If a road is multi-lane and has timed lights that enable through traffic, folks are not going to do 25 mph. It would be like putting a table full of cupcakes on the other side of field from a group of children and then telling them to walk very slowly toward it.
I don’t know if you have read posts here about our current couplet roads through downtown, but the main issue is that it really only works if you are slightly speeding; otherwise you’ll eventually be stopped. If the city/state would just time those signals properly to allow thru-traffic at a lower/posted speed, I think that people will learn how to go through downtown efficiently, safely and at a lower speed.
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I think it’s a two-fold issue having to do with permitting and rule books saying that certain types of roads have to have certain speed limits. With this being a high volume multi-lane principal arterial, if things are the same as Georgia, they legally can’t have a speed limit less than 35 mph. But maybe they can get some variances and time the lights at 25 MPH and eventually some people will learn, “hey I’ll save time actually driving that speed”
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Green is about a 60’ right of way, so you could fit three northbound lanes and sidewalks pretty easily, but you would have to probably pick only one of: turn lanes, street parking, or protected cycle facilities.
In contrast, Saunders is a zillion feet wide and if you make it southbound only for cars, you could fit everything and the kitchen sink - even including a busway (perhaps with northbound contraflow operation.)
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Northbound: 3 through lanes - you don’t have to worry about left turn dedicated cycles so left and right lanes are just option lanes. Traditional 6’ sidewalks on each side.
Southbound:3 through lanes, same shared through / turn operations, 10’ right side multi-use path, buffer, two-way cycle path, buffer, BRT dedicated guideway. I think it fits
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McDowell and Dawson are US Highway 70. So yes it is a major thoroughfare. I can’t see them changing the speed limits anytime in the near future. I cross it several times daily going from the parking deck to the office and the speed limit doesn’t bother me at all. But, with that said, somebody runs the red light nearly every time I am getting ready to cross. That is annoying to me.
Additional edit >>> It is also US 401 and NC 50.
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I really want to initiate whatever it takes to get this concept to the NCDOT for consideration. I think we could get a lot of people (influential at that) behind this with safety as a primary focus and improving the quality of downtown residents as a close second.
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Please, let’s make sure there’s room for the gondola pedestals from DTR > DIX > DoSo.
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Lowering the speed limit barely hinders capacity at all. Dropping from 45 to 35 actually increases capacity; dropping from 35 to 25 decreases it but only by a few percent. So lowering the speed limit wouldn’t cause substantial new congestion. It adds about a minute for people driving all the way through from Capital to Saunders.
Let’s not forget that Dawson/McDowell also have a death toll, with the highest concentration of fatal and maiming crashes (both motorist and pedestrian) in the downtown area.
If DOT takes a stand to defend 35mph on the basis of saving a minute for through traffic… They’re on pretty shaky ground, IMO. Slow speeds on US and NC highways through downtowns are nothing unusual. It’s this 35mph speed limit on a downtown street that is an unusual outlier.
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Well of course ALL streets and highways with higher speed limits have a greater chance of a higher death toll than those streets with lower speed limits. I mean honestly that is not saying much really. We have always been willing to accept some higher death rates for higher speed limits. Otherwise let’s change all speed limits throughout to 25 or even lower. With that being said, it would not bother me at all if they did lower the speed limit. As a driver and a pedestrian I am also okay with the 35. My main point is that I just don’t think they will lower the rates anytime in the near future (10 or less years).
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Once the beltline upgrades are done on the west side, they just need to re-route US-70 along the Beltline., and keep city streets for city driving, not US highways.
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The city would never offer to take on the costs of maintaining that corridor and the state wouldn’t want that routing, it’s too herky-jerky to call it a continuous route with how 40 and 440 arc out.
End of the day though, these routes, especially when in the city are nothing more than numbers and who pays for the upkeep. Like most things - it’s all about money!
Edit: Actually may be able to convince them to keep 70 on I-40 up through Garner and then follow the East Beltline back over to Glenwood.
But then you have to figure out what to do with SR 50 and US 401 as well. Gets complicated.
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This is awesome! I think if you stick or start with this part, everything seems feasible and doesn’t seem too far fetched and like it might could actually happen?
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I’m perfectly okay with keeping the couplet at 35 as long as the lights are timed to reward people for following the speed limit, and punish them for speeding by making them subject to stopping. People who drive the couplet have learned that they are rewarded for speeding up, and I think that they can learn that they are rewarded for keeping to the limit with re-timed signals.
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Totally agree. 35 on its own is not that bad. But when folks push it to 45+ to get through lights it becomes an issue.
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35 through downtown is absolutely beyond the pale to me. Inexcusable to have speeds that high where there is so much pedestrian traffic. And for what? So people cutting through downtown can save a minute? F that noise
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35 is the default speed for every road in the city that’s not signed differently, isn’t it?
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Yep (and I don’t like that either but that’s another story for another day.)
Every 35mph Street downtown should be downgraded yesterday to 25, except possibly MLK/Western.
According to NCDOT, the 35mph streets downtown are:
- Dawson
- McDowell
- East Edenton (but not west)
- Morgan
- Blount
- South Person (but not north)
I also think that the case for 45mph on suburban arterials, particularly in commercial areas, is pretty thin too. 45mph actually even hinders capacity! 35mph allows more people-friendly features like 10’ traffic lanes.
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Why all of Blount but not N Person? N Person is full of businesses with a presence close to the street and tons of people walking around in the evenings. It could really stand for some traffic calming.
North Person is 30mph.
This is all going by an online NCDOT map that could be wrong or out of date BTW