There are many parts of SF that have vibrant street life, but the Metreon/Westfield Mall area is decidedly not one of them. The parts of SF that are great (in my book) are the many, many neighborhoods with shops that open into the street. I can’t think of a single area of SF that checks that box and also has a significant indoor mall (or a Smoky-Hollow-like development) other than perhaps Japantown.
Georgetown in DC has a mall that is hidden behind street front shops.
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Look at all of that sidewalk activation! 
I think that I understand why Kane turned his back on the city streets, and that’s probably so he could control the experiences within HIS property, while not having to worry about that messy public realm. However, maybe this is backfiring on him? He certainly hasn’t filled up his available storefronts at Smoky Hollow, has he?
Look, the city requires the 14 foot wide sidewalks so that they can be activated, yet there isn’t anything happening on them because Kane has created his own “sidewalks” that he’d rather fill and control. I don’t think that Kane understands how most of us want to experience the downtown of our city.
In the end, am I glad that this replaced what was there? (Reminder photo below) Yes I’d rather have this project than what was there just last decade.
However, this doesn’t mean that I don’t want to see things get continuously better in our urban footprint. I’d venture to say that Smoky Hollow in its entirety would be more successful had he put a welcoming face on the city streets to this development, and allowed the energy of the city to intermingle with it. Just imagine if instead of what we see today, there were thriving businesses with outdoor seating under umbrellas dotting both West and Harrington.
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I completely agree 
with some of the loud mufflers and exhaust…perhaps the sidewalk activation might not be so desirable? and controlled or surrounded area with some outdoor seating might be better for dining and conversing…arent the seaboard dining areas generally going to be away from the parking their?
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I haven’t been to any of those places besides Hudson Yards and my experience was pretty much like this
However I don’t really enjoy shopping as a recreational activity so you’d have a hard time convincing me that visiting a mall is a fun way to spend my vacation. Not to be flip, just explaining my bias here.
My sense is that most people feel the same way, which is why the Great American shopping mall is basically extinct (or trying to reinvent itself as a lifestyle center /entertainment destination or whatever). I do think mixed use development is a vast improvement over an enclosed shopping mall, but old habits die hard. The convergence of the shopping mall concept with New Urbanist aesthetics scares me.
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…been to any other cities? lol
What about it scares you? Again, this is nothing new: Regent Street is 200 years old, built by the royal family as a purpose-built and highly managed outdoor mall.
With the vast majority of Regent Street’s entire 2km length held by The Crown Estate, we are able to take a holistic view and carefully curate a mix of retail, entertainment, dining and lifestyle brands to provide a rich experience for visitors.
“Downtown” as a concept was a relic of the 19th-20th century era when customers mostly arrived at shops via streetcars, which had fixed routes and converged in a small area. That era had a lot to recommend it (e.g., carbon footprints were lower), but it’s over. Also, retail space management has come a long way since then, and most shoppers (and most retailers) prefer an easier-to-shop, more managed experience, where there’s someone else handling sidewalk sweeping, leasing to compatible neighbors, and validating parking. You may prefer a grittier aesthetic, but your aesthetic preferences are just that – your preferences.
I’ve heard the same criticism from transit service planners, who at least have non-aesthetic reasons for wanting shops on the bus route. (Detouring buses deep into shopping centers adds a lot of time, turns, and mileage to bus routes.) But part of what the shops don’t want is loud buses right outside their patios! The best that we can manage is likely going to be bus stops at the entrances to shopping areas.
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The main thing I was saying is that developments like Smoky Hollow, the mall, NH, and Fenton do exist in bigger cities. People did tend to visit the Westfield Mall before it closed down (prior to the pandemic). People will go visit Pier 39 and it could be considered to be “inward facing”. That’s not to say that neighborhoods open to the street cannot be lively. I’m mainly saying that just because a place is not open to the street doesn’t mean it’s not good for the city. I don’t want to always be pointed towards a street. Traffic noise sucks. I will admit that I have enjoyed my visits to Adams Morgan in DC, Hampden/West 36th in Baltimore, Elmwood/College Ave in Berkeley, Telegraph/Temescal in Oakland, all have lively streets. I also enjoy pedestrian only neighborhoods as well. Thames St in Baltimore was closed off on a Saturday night to traffic. It was probably one of the liveliest places I’ve seen.
If we really want to look at Google street views, clearly Glenwood South is much more active with it’s street facing shops. In all reality, I do tend to see people walking on West Street just outside Smoky Hollow. Granted they aren’t visiting the dog daycare place at that time and it’s more of them walking to Glenwood South. I don’t have photos, but I guess it’s something I can grab when I’m back in town.
Let’s also not forget the active Fayetteville St:
It would just depend on the person. Normally I would be the same in that I wouldn’t want to do that on my vacation. To spend a weekend day with my spouse, then sure. We have done walks over to the mall. We would grab Starbucks, maybe a dessert, do some shopping, and then walk home. I wouldn’t suggest going there if you want to drink or have a night out, but shopping is fine. If the mall added entertainment or a grocery store (which I continuously have said), then I would probably go to the mall for grocery shopping or entertainment. If they had a brewery or 2, or a bar that wasn’t Cheesecake Factory or similar, then I’m sure I’d be there along with other people.
If I had kids, I’d probably be at the mall a bit more. Go see Santa Clause, the Easter Bunny, or simply walk around the mall with your kid, then sure. If I was on vacation, I’d take them to go see the museums downtown, however you’d still be within a museum that’s enclosed.
Spending an afternoon/evening watching a band play at NH Park and eating some ice cream isn’t a bad thing. NH gets full, but again this is something that’s considered to many as an inward facing development that isn’t good for the city.
As far as Hudson Yards goes, I mainly went because I liked to walk on the High Line. People go see the Vessel as well. I actually liked going to Dumbo in Brooklyn. It faces the waterfront and isn’t facing the street. I’d think many would call that an inward facing development as it’s also not facing the street. Parks/greenways are more my thing.
I’m with @sthomper on this one. This is a good reason why I like when developments don’t face the street. Sometimes it’s nice not having to deal with the loud mufflers and exhaust. Which is funny because I used to roll around with a super loud exhaust system. There are times where I don’t mind hearing the roars of loud cars, but there are times where I’d like to sit and not be bombarded with it. It also doesn’t have to be loud exhausts. Even car horns are annoying. That’s my issue with North Hills Main District during lunch time. Too many people trying to pick up Chick Fil A and honking because people are parked outside running in to get food while blocking.
Alexandria, VA does close off parts of King St. on weekend nights. It’s typically pretty busy.
I think I’ve rambled enough and can stop lol. I’m sure some are probably annoyed by me constantly talking about it. I just wanted to point out my opinions on why I like places like the Wharf in DC or developments that would be considered to be “inward facing”. I don’t expect everyone to agree; It’s just my thoughts.
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My point wasn’t really about aesthetics – I was trying to say we are building shopping malls disguised as New Urbanism. These developments might dress themselves up in the style of New Urbanism, but they function as shopping malls. And there’s broad consensus among planners that malls are dead and New Urbanism was a mixed blessing at best – didn’t expect that to be controversial on this forum.
As far as “grittiness” or “authenticity”, I take your point, and I’m pretty cynical. It takes a lot of planning and behind-the-scenes capital transfer to keep a neighborhood gritty and sell back it to hipsters.
But I still think the concept of a city is redeemable. And at minimum, a city should include genuine public space, mixed-use development, pedestrian infrastructure, transit infrastructure, – all in the same footprint. If we can’t figure that one out, we’re doomed.
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i ate at race street fish in san jose …it was a bit noisy but the fish was good
The difference is: I see cities continuing to evolve, not “doomed.” Newbury Street, Oak Street, Savile Row – all have been thriving retail streets for centuries, none have been busy main thoroughfares. If cities want to make public streets more attractive for retailers, they can definitely do that, but then they’ll have to build those streets and likely handle the parking as well. Raleigh (and/or NCDOT) has chosen to have stroads instead.
Also, I know it’s been just a few years since I was in planning grad school, but I do know that malls aren’t dead; over $800B was spent at US malls in 2022, which is more than Amazon and Walmart’s US gross sales that year.
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If You Hate Density, Maybe Don’t Live in A City (youtube.com)
This video is SPOT on.
I couldn’t agree more.
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I agree, if you think that your going to get that suburban feeling while living in the city, forget it , doesn’t work like that.
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in roanoke va it does…floating on at 100k people for the last 32 years.
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interesting vid. This struck me at the early part of the piece though:
Right at 1:45.
“The standard assumption in urban planning over the past few decades is that if you don’t want your neighborhood to change then you can legally block it from changing. We want to offer an alternative solution if you don’t want to experience higher densities or sea taller buildings you shouldn’t live in a city especially a major city you should live in a small town or rural area that naturally suits your preferences better”
My problem with this “alternative solution” is that it basically says to a single family homeowner in town, hey if you don’t like density next door, move.
I am with the other voices I hear on this forum saying jeez, there’s absolutely TONS OF EMPTY PARKING LOTS in Raleigh. Build density there first before tearing down other things.
To the video content producer: I would not want my neighborhood’s character overrun by next door density or across the street density anyway, and to be told “it’s for the greater good” is just too commie for me, sorry. I don’t want stuff jammed down neighbor’s throats. I for one, while I want Raleigh to grow, am not a fan of building density “just any place.” We are spread out enough as it is. Dividing a small lot into multiple residences when the rest of the street is not, just makes no sense to me, and a lot of others. Saying “just move if you don’t like it” is a joke, especially in our local housing situation.
North Hills density is attractively done. The homes backing to St. Albans which has so many large chunky residential buildings along it, is nice. Having a single family home just off Glenwood a few blocks facing a 3-5 story building across from them would suck.
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I draw the line at others telling everyone else what to do with their property (within reason). A 3-5 story building within a block of downtown is not only not unreasonable, it’s damn near expected.
That’s the opposite of commie. The commie thing to do would be all the neighbors in an area grouping together and telling that property owner what they can and cannot do with the property they bought and paid for.
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The goal is to get back to a natural operation where neighborhoods are free to change from the inside out, but not subject to change from external speculative investment. Meaning, if your neighbor sees value in adding a backyard cottage, converting their detached garage into an efficiency, or tearing down and replacing with a duplex, they are free to do so.
Eventually after a generation of this laissez faire (normal) growth, the duplex gets torn down and replaced with a 5 story 12-plex.
I agree with you that neighborhoods shouldn’t be subject to massive change. And they currently are not without an extremely difficult ring kissing pony show
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So let’s talk about this example a bit since there was a recent case regarding these particular neighborhoods.
Back in the Fall I attended a public forum where Mitchell Silver was representing the developer who wanted to upzone the property that’s across Peace from the Smoky Hollow Publix. Mind you, this property is east of West St. In any case, the neighbors off Glenwood were up in arms against the up zoning for all their character reasons. Also note that this is the last single family neighborhood before entering downtown proper as defined by the city. In any case, the property in question is along the old Pigeon Branch and is at a lower elevation than the neighborhood off of Glenwood. The neighborhood is separated from the site by the railroad, the properties on the west side of West St., and West St. itself, all while descending a hill to the Peace St. frontage of the site. The neighbors do not access their properties from any other artery other than Glenwood itself, and this property is not accessed from Glenwood. In fact, it’s about 600 ft from Glenwood. Do you think that these neighbors’ voices should override the development of a property that’s fully within the downtown boundary and doesn’t immediately border any of their properties?
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