Downtown South development

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Meanwhile in Charlotte… they get buildings with better design and height (not saying this is fantastic… but butter than what Raleigh has been seeing in my opinion) I think this would look great in Smok(e)y Phase II. Although, they too have a massive exposed parking deck.

I would love to see Smok(e)y Phase III look like a redesigned John Handcock building… If I were Kane, I would put in a building that is amazing and could even call it the “Kane Tower” or something to that nature. His iconic signature building for Raleigh.

https://www.charlotteobserver.com/news/business/article231952298.html

05%20PM

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Did not read this whole thread, but I did read through about 100 comments on ABC 11’s Facebook post.

“Raleigh needs to stop growing”
“Traffic”
“Where’s anyone going to park at? I don’t see parking”

^This is why we have the city council we have.

I skimmed through over 100 comments and did not see 1 positive comment.

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Facebook - there’s your problem

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I always think it’s interesting that the majority of the people who say those things live in Holly Springs, Apex, Cary etc and probably rarely come downtown. I really dislike the whole there is no parking downtown statement. As someone who lives downtown I rarely ever have any issues parking. I feel like the people who complain about parking are the ones who think they should be able to find a spot right in front of where they are going.

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Well, people in Cary, Apex, Holly Springs, etc., are used to parking right in front of where they want to go,
oh…and for free.
You’re probably right they are likely the ones making those comments.

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I don’t live downtown and have no issues parking either. In fact, often times, I can find a spot on the street within a block or less. Failing that, parking decks are never 100% full. Of course, I do avoid large events downtown, so there may be a difference in those cases.

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I live in NW Raleigh and actually like to walk a few blocks when I come downtown. When we come down for a play or concert, I always park farther away to avoid the higher parking cost near the venue. Maybe I am weird, but I like walking around in DTR.

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I don’t understand this - it doesn’t taper from DTC and it certainly is gonna cast a shadow all over people!!!

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I bet the Boylan HOA will have something to say about this.

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I commented on the developers post and this is what I said: “I think it’s atrocious” “the overall design is very mismatched and somewhat old fashioned”

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That building is amazing and if built in Raleigh we would all be cheering. What is crazy to me is this is in Southend, not uptown. South End has taller buildings now then anything not in out top 3.

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Hi guys,

A couple buddies and myself record a weekly sports podcast, mainly about NCFC, but also lots of Canes talk. We all live in downtown and talk development frequently (not on the pod), but one item that we’ve been frequently discussing is the new Kane/Malik development. We decided to have local politicians on to express their thoughts and also clear up some of the misinformation. To begin, we’ve had Sig Hutchinson on and have had others confirm in the following weeks.

I’m not a fan of posting podcasts on a forum like this, but I thought these conversations could be beneficial to the DTR community. If you have any questions you think we should ask, just let me know.

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Great listen, Mike!

If you guys don’t subscribe to the Raleigh City Sports podcast then you’re missing out. Always super relevant and always worth the time.

Anyways, just wanted to give a few thoughts on this.

  • I like how Sig went in-depth on the funds (which I think there has been a big misconception on.) He also explained the competition for those funds and the history of what these funds have been used for.

  • Sig hinted at this DT South project getting a portion of funds from this round and then getting to ask for more in the next round. I’m really am on board if that is the plan. I think everyone agrees that we need a downtown stadium. however, today’s guaranteed tenants are NCFC and The Courage, and eventually whatever concerts Red Hat was hosting. Those would do well downtown, but IMO they don’t warrant having the county commit to a 20k seat stadium. NCFC / The Courage average just around 5k per season (which obviously would increase). However, only 3 of USL’s 33 teams averaged over 10k in attendance with the average team bringing in 4,900. As for concerts, the ones we lose with Red Hat are lower capacity and still do not sell out most of the time. Red Hat’s capacity is about 6k.

  • With that said, I’d love to hear about contingencies being places on this large amount of money. Is that an option? Could they commit to say 25 million to Malik and Kane in this round to get the ball rolling (and maybe create plans to build a more suitable 10k seat stadium on footprint built to expand if necessary) with the contingency of kicking in the other 275 million if or when they can secure MLS?

  • Sig must have misunderstood how it worked in Nashville with the Titans. That scenario is not a good comparison to this one. They did not build a 70,000 seat stadium on speculation without a team granted. They Houston Oilers struck a deal to move to Nashville contingent on state funds to pay for the stadium. There was never a possibility of Nissan Stadium being built, NFL deciding not to come, and Nashville being on the hook for finding ways to activate a 70k seat stadium. The deal was, if the city/state voted to fund it, NFL was coming. End of story. That is just not the case here, which is why I’m hesitant.

  • With Dorthea Dix likely going to be pretty reliant on these funds in the coming years, and it being arguably the most important project in Raleigh’s history, I just would hope the county can find a way to both move forward with the stadium complex and DT South, but do so in a way that shields them from risk of over-committing until they can guarantee a high-volume tenant.

I’d really like to hear everyone’s take on the cons of tiering or phasing this project to mitigate risk (at least from a county funding perspective.)

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IMO, the difference between downtown south and Dix is that Dix isn’t going to be doing much of anything to increase the pot of money from which it draws in the future. On the other hand, downtown south will contribute to the fund that it draws from, possibly leaving the city with a net zero sum investment or better and its citizens with a fantastic new urban district and amenity.

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Thanks, Lou! You make some really good points and I think it leads to more questions and better dialogue.

  • We’ve read and heard some pretty crazy responses (not from the informed visitors of this board), so we wanted to try and clear some of that up. We read a lot of people saying, “well what about teacher pay! Why not affordable housing?” etc…Just wanted to make those folks aware that’s not even possible.

  • The funding process is still really unclear for me. Is it closed? Is it opening back up? There’s apparently $42 million in other funds that are allocated separately? He also mentioned “other tools in the tool box” for the city and county to fund this…this was a missed opportunity on my part to ask him to expand on that. In regards to the capacity, I agree that will definitely go up and I honestly think 12K avg would be a solid bet for current Division 2 NCFC if built here. I just think, that despite what Malik says, he’s hedging hard for MLS and think this gets him over the hump (esp if the 40 team, pro/rel scenario a lot people see on the horizon happens).

  • I don’t know about the contingencies, but it sounds like a fair question and one that we can ask. It is the city/county’s money, so they may be able to do that if they choose.

  • Agreed on Titans situation. I was pretty sure that’s how it worked, but didn’t have time to point it out. I think what we were getting at with Nashville though was the environment that the downtown sports facility creates - I just look down the road at the American Tobacco Campus. Even if this only ends up a 12k stadium (with potential to grow) for our current Division 2 team, it’s a win for me.

  • Agreed on Dix being the most important project. I think compromises will have to made on the Malik side because there is no high volume tenant, but I do think they have the funds to handle both adequately. And to @John 's point, this will add to the fund that it’s utilizing.

Thanks for the comments again though and we’ll try to get some of those answered in our next few conversations.

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Also:

In the next couple of years (read: while it’s being upgraded), that’s probably true. But it seems like Dix Park may not have to take money out of the same pot, if they rely on their other funding sources and time their tourist tax funding application at the right time?

Of course I'm not pulling this out of my ass; who do you think I am lol
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Mike,

Same here, and I thought you asked great questions. There are so many questions to be answered, but the first move is always to level -set the conversation so everyone is on the same page and can have an educated discussion/debate.

Yep, I think the hotel tax pool is confusing. Even Sig seemed unsure of how it really is set up. I think the only thing I am unsure of is NCFC’s ability to draw consistently over 10k. With Cincinnati, Sacramento, and Nashville graduating and being awarded an MLS franchise, you really have only have one USL team that averages over 10k and that’s Indy. Does it warrant building a 20k seat stadium on a hunch? Or does it make more sense to build a 10k seat stadium (with a footprint built to expand) and then prove that this is an MLS market by selling out that smaller stadium and creating an amazing home atmosphere (while not risking 30 years worth of these tax funds in case we do not land MLS).

I guess the best example locally is The Durham Bulls. They are a minor league club and the only show in town during the summer months. They have a great family atmosphere. A super tight gameday experience and one of the coolest stadiums in the MiLB. They also are built around a top-notch entertainment district that is walkable to Durham’s downtown core and even they only average a little under 10k per game. (and struggle to host many outdoor concerts consistently.)

I think that is the biggest question for the semi-soccer fan and the Raleigh-ite who really could care less about soccer but wants some entertainment downtown is “Is this a con-job to convince the county to pay for a huge stadium that is sold as ‘multi-use’ but in reality is an MLS stadium being built on speculation with no risk to the team owner?”

Malik has very little risk in this proposal and tons of reward. Meanwhile, the city holds large risk, with rewards dependant on a lot of unanswered questions and hypotheticals.

I think this project would have across the board support if they came out with a plan that is transparent, reduces risk for the city and gives him a little more skin in the game. Sure, let the city sign off on a big-time stadium contingent on getting MLS. That’s all MLS has ever needed before (land, an ownership group and a money committed by the city). But until you show that you can produce that ROI with a high-volume tenant, I feel like we’re putting our future entertainment growth at risk if the county awards $300 million over 25 years.

That said, thank you for being open to hearing these questions. I always think you guys do an awesome job, ask the right things and although you guys are huge soccer fans, always approach these debates from a balanced and fair perspective.

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In regards to the city/county providing a tax subsidy, is anyone able to compare an Penmarc stadium to the PNC arena? From those that use the facilities, attendance, access, tax revenue recouped, etc…it would be interesting to see and better understand, if anyone has actual information or input? :upside_down_face::thinking:

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I’ve commented on this a couple times here…

To me, PNC and the proposed Penmarc stadium don’t have much in common.

PNC was built with 2 high-volume tenants guaranteed. NC State basketball averaged about 12k per game and NHL was averaging about 15-17k per game. This was guaranteeing usage around 70 days per season.

This was also Raleigh’s first high-capacity indoor venue and arenas like this had and have proven to be able to bring in consistent concerts and events (monster truck, circus, Disney on Ice, etc). PNC stays active with big events about an average of about 12 days per month (I believe that’s that last stat I saw).

This was an example of what I see as a low risk, high reward use of the tourism tax dollars. It had guaranteed big-time tenants and there was a ton of precedent around being able to activate it all year around at a consistent rate.

My problem with Penmarc is that while it is being dubbed as a “multi-use facility” for Raleigh, its actually just a 20k seat soccer stadium. Too small to host college footbal games/bowls, to narrow to host baseball of any level, and with no roof, making it difficult to book concerts/events consistently.

If MLS was a guarantee then I don’t think anyone would have a problem with just approving the build. But with Charlotte’s MLS bid gaining steam (thanks to Tepper’s $$$) and no true guarantee that MLS will even expand past 30 teams, it just seems like a gamble right now.

The question that won’t get answered is this…

  • Are Malik and Kane just proposing all of this to get the sign off from the city on a 20k seat stadium to then turn around and tell MLS that they have land, stadium funds and a legit ownership group in hopes of being a ‘ready-to-go option’ and landing one of the last franchises? (while not building the 20k stadium off the bat).

Or

  • Are they just holding this $1.9 billion dollar district proposal over the county/city’s head to entice them to take a gamble that “if they build it, MLS will come.”

That’s what I believe a lot of people want to know.

If #1 then that’s fine, but the city should have a way to fund a smaller, cheaper, , expandable, more versatile version of the stadium until MLS makes it’s decisions (at which time they’d be able to kick in the big money to expand and make it a true pro-soccer stadium.

But if #2, then the county/city should be a little wary of ear-marking this much money, for this long a time-period on a bet that could really come back to bite them in the future should MLS not choose Raleigh or not decide to continue expansion.

…

@keita as far as Dix pulling big money from the Tourism Tax pot, that is up for debate. The park was designed to house some land-lease high rises on the Lake Wheeler side. That money would then be used to build and maintain the park. However, neighborhood groups strongly opposed this option during the vote to approve the master plan. It’s still up in the air on if those will be built. If they aren’t then we have a HUGE question on how this city-defining destination park is going to get built / fund itself. Keeping the option open for using large chunks of this fund IMO is extremely important to us getting the park put forth in the master plan.

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This is absolutely spot on.

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