“Gumpert said the team wants to be in position to launch stadium construction as soon as final MLS documents are signed. Much of the discussions between the league and the local investment group involve the design details of the planned soccer stadium.”
https://www.sacbee.com/sports/mls/article232095337.html
Sacramento got ok on funding but won’t start building until agreement with MLS is signed. (According to this)
That’s fine. Grant funding for a 10k stadium, expandable to 20k and guarantee funding for the 20k if MLS is awarded.
If the City/County is going to finance and be the owner they can put it on whatever timeline they like. Have them play MLS at WakeMed soccer while it’s under construction. If the commitment is there, even with a delay it’s going to vastly increase the chances of landing MLS.
The City/County needs to step up to the plate. A lot of us aren’t hockey fans and they just got what $115M? I don’t really have any idea what kinds of upgrades they’re looking at for that price, but it’s not going to entice me to attend more events or spend more money at the ones I do attend.
This is the opportunity for a completely new venue for basically the same cost as improvements to an existing facility that functions just fine as is. If they paid for it outright they save $100M. What’s wrong with multiplying the options?
This is what I’ve hoped for since the beginning, but it’s flown in the face of their stated position. Malik said in an early interview they are not going to build a smaller stadium and Kane has said ‘no stadium, no development.’ So this is mostly where the argument begins with most on this board.
Please help me understand something better. Orlando recently acquired an MLS bid and subsequently built a soccer specific stadium. I’m not sure how activated it is given the Citrus Bowl is down the street but I assume they have the challenges you mention using it for other events. Are you saying it’s a “huge problem” for the city?
If they say “no stadium, no development” then that’s their prerogative. I haven’t seen their marketing analytics but it could very well be that this deal doesn’t work without the stadium as a catalyst. They could still buy and develop it as a smaller project without a stadium, or they could pass on it. Without the anchor tenant they could always put some 5 story apartments there and make something work.
If they’re all in on the MLS bid and wouldn’t do the project with a smaller stadium then that’s their prerogative. They have a plan and sometimes things just don’t work out. I can’t fault Malik for not wanting to move from a 10k seat stadium in Cary to a 10k seat stadium in Raleigh.
People don’t have to agree with their proposal or that they should get the funding. You can write the councils and tell them that just like anyone else can. Everyone has things they’d like handled differently and it’s up to people to direct their energy how they see fit.
It doesn’t seem like they’re getting what they’ve asked for anyway, so we’ll all probably get to call their bluff and see what happens at Penmarc.
Well, the question of whether or not a stand-alone MLS stadium is a good investment is up for debate because of this very thing. It’s really just a math equation.
How are you filling the stadium or activating it the other 348 days of the year?
MLS averages 21k fans per game and plays just 17 home games. That comes out to a total of 372k fans per season coming to home games. That is by far the lowest of any major sport.
So if you can’t fill it much outside of those 17 days (and most MLS stadiums have not had much luck) then yeah, it’s gonna be a problem for whoever owns it.
At the same time, I understand that sometimes you just need to take a risk, especially if it’s one of your city’s last shots for a pro sport.
That’s why I think public funding for a 20k seat stadium should be contingent on landing a franchise.
As for Orlando. They landed a franchise so they built the stadium. It’s not a problem for the city because the city doesn’t own it or didn’t fund it. It was 100% privately funded if I’m not mistaken.
Had it been publicly funded, would it have been a problem for the city? Idk, depends on if MLS stadiums are paying off with those numbers listed above.
Personally, if we were guaranteed an MLS franchise, I’d be down for taking the risk on a city owned 20k seat stadium. Otherwise, I’m not liking the deal.
Is it just a stadium? Or is John Kane also committing to build a bunch of stuff? Office buildings, restaurants, condos, apartments? The whole point is to revitalize a neglected section of the city. If Malik and soccer fans get a benefit from the deal, I’m ok with that.
Personally, I can’t imagine Kane passing up a chance to develop in an opportunity zone—with all of its financial benefits—even if the stadium doesn’t happen. That seems crazy.
This whole effort to get money to build the stadium has actually been a really good proof point that there is excitement and demand for a development there with or without the stadium. I like the stadium idea. Lets give them 5 Million over 10 years. Leaves money for the other stuff we don’t even know we want yet in the future and gives them $50,000,000.
I agree that the stadium needs to be activated more than 17 days a year. Malik had discussed in the past pairing with Shaw’s football team(6 games). The NC Courage have 12 home games. This year alone, WakeMed soccer park is hosting the ICC womens cup, the NWSL championship, and the ACC soccer championships. In the past its hosted the NCAA soccer final 4, ultimate frisbee playoffs, as well as games for the USMNT and USWNT. Add in potential concerts, and I think that we can expect the stadium to be in use at least 100 days a year.
As a point of reference (back to the Orlando City Stadium), here are the current tenants of the stadium.
Of course that doesn’t expand on all events there, but there is also a lot of venue competition right downtown Orlando. As far as I can tell, no concerts have been hosted there yet, but again, there are other venues that would host those before this stadium.
Exploria Stadium Wiki
To me, if the city / county were to own the stadium, that’s when it doesn’t make sense, as the city / county in those cases would be taking too much risk. It’s one thing to ask for $13M in public financing that can be paid back through property taxes and taxes generated by the various activities in the venue. It’s another to have the city to take ownership and risk not fully utilizing the venue.
JoeZ, so you are assuming we get MLS with those numbers. MLS would hopefully be able to fill the 20k seat stadium for all of their 17 homes games.
Kane/Malik are asking for public funding to build the stadium WITHOUT MLS guaranteed. That is really my main problem . The Courage averages just about 5k per game, ICC women’s cup, NWSL championship games, ACC Tournament games, ultimate Frisbee playoffs, USMNT and USWNT games are all hypotheticals on being hosted at this venue. Even if they are hosted at the venue, very few would even come close to filling a 20k seat stadium.
So while you could possibly activate a downtown stadium 100 nights per year, almost none of them (outside of MLS) would come close to filling a 20k seat stadium.
So, my point is, if we are guaranteed MLS then ok fine, maybe you take the risk and build a 20k seat stadium. But without MLS, you put the city in a very risky situation of having to own and operate a 20k seat stadium with almost NO guaranteed events that can even fill it.
A much less risky proposition would be to give them a few million to build a smaller venue that the city would have no trouble filling with these smaller events/matches, but build it with the ability to expand it in mind (if you ever did land MLS or another sport/team that would call for 20k+ seats) and re-assess the funding if and when that happens. In this scenario you could also argue that when Red Hat Amphitheater closes (capacity at over 6k), some of those concerts could move to this venue (still a reach, but plausible).
Not sure why there is much debate on that front. I know that there are those who are extremely passionate about doing all we can to have the best shot to land MLS, however, building a 20k seat stadium on speculation just doesn’t seem to make much sense when you lay out the numbers and risks associated with it.
New MLS expansion city ‘rankings’. MLS expansion: Ranking the remaining potential markets | Goal.com
Raleigh is still out front according to this and has even jumped up the rankings a bit. If the City and County drag out their commitment and spend an unnecessary amount of time pandering to a small, loud ‘naysayer’ community, we can watch ‘charlotte usa’ breeze past us.
Very cool article.
Of the ten stadium projects profiled, I think the Raleigh one looked the coolest (I think the night render with the lights and the fireworks looks futuristic and festive).
The new project has helped Raleigh’s profile climb past some other stagnant bids, while also staying ahead of Charlotte as the leading bid in North Carolina.
Very bullish for Raleigh’s bid, but if you read the Charlotte section, they point out that things can change quickly.
Would love to see 70+ Atlantic League Baseball Games added to this list . In today’s TBJ , there is
another soccer article concerning Mr. Malik .
That brings up an interesting question. Does a stadium need to have a certain number of activities a year in order to justify it’s existence? There are stadiums built primarily to host one large international event, and then rarely ever filled again. I think there’s a middle ground in there somewhere.
If MLS occupies it 17 days, and you have the Courage there for +/- 17 days, you’re up to 34 dates, or roughly 10% of the days in a year. If soccer field surface and stadium prep and recovery is 1 day for every 3 days of play you’re up to 44 days a year that the stadium is occupied or recovering from professional soccer.
Beyond that if you have any of the local colleges play special neutral site events, the ACC men’s or women’s soccer tournament, the NCAA men’s or women’s soccer tournament, CASL championship events, potentially the NC High School Championship and/or lacrosse events and you’re probably looking at a max of 70-100 days a year, without including any shows or concert type events. (I personally wouldn’t want to see concerts there unless they were guaranteeing field repair) 100-ish activity days has the stadium activated or otherwise occupied 27% of the days in a year.
This isn’t remote like PNC where you can put them out in the middle of a huge swath of government land with seas of parking surrounding it. For a more urban type of venue, lacking subway or rail, I think that more than 100 events could become more of a nuisance than amenity at the Penmarc location.
I also think there would be NCFC offices at the stadium, so there would be some activity there during the workweek all year round.
ROI discussion aside - This project would have an impact on Raleigh’s brand beyond what you can measure in numbers
Branding and attractiveness to young talent is what we need most IMO. Compare Raleigh to its peers and we have a good chance for a family but lack the hipness for a single young professional contemplating a relocation. Today people flock to places where they want to live and jobs follow and not the other way round.
• Should we make the tax money contingent on developers’ promises – surely
• Will Penmarc eventually be developed – yes… but perhaps not in a way we like e.g. an array of stick 7 story apartment buildings and another Wegman. Downtown south is a bullish proposal that stretches downtown, creates density and strengthens our case for transit
• Could Kane/Malik be bluffing? Maybe but I rather have them sit down with the city figure out a plan how this could work than calling the bluff and they walk away
Malik is not super rich like some sports franchise owners. He is trying to get Raleigh an MLS team, but needs financial assistance. He can’t do it on his own and still be the owner. Unless some billionaire swoops in, Malik is the only way Raleigh gets an MLS franchise.
There is a high probability that Raleigh would be awarded an MLS team if this stadium is a go. Some situations require proactive measures with some risk if you want the reward. Add in the fact that South Downtown gets developed and it’s a no brainer for the city to outlay some cash for the stadium.
I find it amusing these MLB proponents are now guardians of the public trough. I love baseball, but MLB ain’t happening in RaleIgh. The numbers just don’t add up despite the demographic twisting. MLS would be a smash hit in this city.
I like Dwight’s Atlantic League idea. That could work.
High Point Rockers Stadium , The Atlantic League , Stadium Brewery stays open 7 days a week . I made a misstate concerning the stadium brewery hours . They are opened every Thursday for special prices
for Thirsty Thursday , even when The Rockers are playing away games , but not 7 days a week . The City
of High Point is working on bringing minor league soccer to their stadium . If you Google , Ballpark Digest
Independent , click on BB&T Point Stadium High Point , there is a real good article about the stadium .