I am very excited this is being built outside of downtown. The holes in the existing core will be filled with time; there’s no question about it. What’s much more uncertain (and unlikely) is that areas outside the existing core urbanize within our lifetime. The addition of new centers of dense, gridded, mixed use development is extremely encouraging for the future of Raleigh, and the vision and resources required to lay the foundation for new walkable districts is hard to come by. We are lucky to see something like this proposed, and if it hadn’t been, it’s just as likely that these areas would’ve ended up as suburban-style development, further constricting Raleigh’s urban areas from expanding beyond their current boundaries.
I’m with @evan.j.bost in that incremental urbanism is definitely preferable to a single massive development. But I think that’s a really hard thing to achieve when trying to convert suburban areas to urban ones in this day in age, because without a street grid, there’s no guarantee that future developers will work together to create connectivity or a cohesive district.
In this case, it does seem like they’re trying to find a balance. As @John pointed out, they say that this is intended to be a district, not a development. In other words, I find it plausible that other developers may partner with Kane to deliver portions of future phases. So maybe we’ll get the benefit of an organized masterplan and a unified set of goals for the district, with the possibility for more diverse ownership as it gets built out.
I agree. I am glad that this is happening just outside of downtown. If we think about it, I-40 was completed through this area nearly 40 years ago with nary a development impact outside of Sam’s Club and that cheap Red Roof Inn.
If a developer with means and some vision didn’t take on such a large project, it is likely that the future development would have continued following that suburban model just a mile south of downtown. It would have been more than just a shame; it would have been borderline criminal.
For me, this is definitely a glass half full situation for me.
I feel like this may end up happening anyway because its just so much development (Park City South, Downtown South, Dix Park, Downtown, Former Greyhound site and whatever the former Cargill site will become) all about 1/4 mile distance to leave them unconnected and unwalkable. Just connecting Dix Park, Downtown South and Downtown (with 2 stops, one to the future developed Convention Center and the other, Raleigh Union Station) would tie all into one entity. If this does happen I would expect more parking on or near DoSo’s property for easy access to 440.
Dang, just live for the day when I can drink as much as I want and ride mass transit (not a bus) home. Right now, I drink in my backyard and walk in. I actually can avoid the car most of the week, but then my wife does all the shopping, lol. It just seems like such a natural to connect DTSou to DT proper, but we will see. That is what I thought in the 80s about DRT, NCSU, RTP, Dur’them. Its clear how much progress we’ve made there.
I mean, BRT would get the job done, too, though? You won’t have to constantly have your eyes peeled for your bus stop -so you can still easily use it on a night out as long as you live near a station.
Fair. I would worry about car sickness. And this is probably for another page, but I am sorta of open to buses, but I really don’t like them. Give me something on rails any day.
Yea…by time all of this development gets going, I feel as though light rail will be the next big thing discussed for downtown. I actually think there’s more of an argument to be had to connect all future development sites downtown vs running light rail throughout the entire city. Lets remember the thing that killed light rail was the price tag given the number of miles it needed to cover. If it can connect just DoSo, Dix Park, Convention Center and Union Station, that’s about 5 miles worth of rail line, maybe even less depending on route and design.
Is “DoSo” going to be a “thing” for us? God I hope we don’t go with that. I don’t want Raleigh to turn into Denver or Nashville with hipster neighborhood names like “LoDo” and “SoBro.”
I am just lazy, and drinking, so I abbreviated, lol. But it could be! @Cliff et all, I would be ok with a trolly/street car on that route, especially if it was cheaper and got build quicker.
Exactly… I’m ok with that too. The developments (and let’s not forget farmers market that will eventually be redeveloped) are just SO close together without it being connected in some way to avoid car use. Just something. My mind just goes back to the Dreamville concert and the Sunflower festival that really became a test to evaluate the best way to move people in and out of Dix Park efficiently. I feel as though mobile connectivity of some sort was and will be the missing piece moving forward.
I attended a meeting yesterday afternoon of people trying to force Downtown South into something called a ‘community agreement’. Remember folks, there’s no existing community in this property, it’s mostly industrial property. Community agreements are legal contracts, fyi.
Yes, the usual suspects attended including Stef.
I sympathize with the organizer in regards to stormwater issues but I suspect once the talks really start the ‘NO’ coalition will start to inject themselves into the mix and derail the original organizers attempts to improve the project.
Same. I’d like to hear more on what diversity means. In development terms, that sounds like mixed-use which this project clearly is.
Anything that resembles gentrification gets some folks to come out like that, chanting “genocide” and “ethnic cleansing”. Complicated issue for sure but not an effective tactic IMO. Active discussion on that here: Gentrification and Displacement
As for Affordable Housing, the former CAC advocates, and we’ve discussed this somewhere around here, think that rezonings should be carrots to developers to supply stuff the city needs more of. They think upzoning downtown with the UDO back in 2014(?) gave away that power that council could stick it to them with the rezoning process.
It’s just one example, sure, but Smoky Hollow will provide affordable units, per the last council (the CAC council) but the terms are extremely weak. Something like 80% of average income for 5 years.
So far, this tactic just isn’t working. Time for a new approach.
I live near all this and the lack of non-car connectivity makes me nuts. I’ve never been part of the “What about the traffic!!??!!” contingent that always pipes up at the first hint of a new development, but if there’s no plan to provide safe and convenient non-car connectivity then the “What about the traffic!!??!!” crowd will be right to complain about the increase in traffic.
A stunning stat from the Oct. 5 Downtown South Town Hall meeting linked above is that 40% of car trips made from I-40 north on S. Saunders are people driving through downtown to destinations north. Essentially using McDowell as a cut through. As long as NC DOT is in control I don’t see that changing. If anything it’s only going to get worse.
