We could do the same with Downtown South, since Malik wants his own version of the Centennial Authority!!!
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There should be no affordable housing at all, its NIMBYISM and there always complaining there just jealous cause the lost power cause they had the same problem when in power. We barely a bond passed and they won’t more, no way!!! Look at LA version of Downtown South it’s next to Staples Center they said no to that!!!
In ongoing hearings, residents and city staff say Downtown South plans need to slow down
After Raleigh residents gave public comments criticizing the project’s plans as being rushed without addressing enough concerns, planning commission members voiced the same.
“We’re rushing everything. I think the staff deserves to have the time to review the analysis to able to submit comments to be able get a revised [development] document back,” said planning commissioner Nicole Bennett. “Why are we rushing it? Let us just do what we need to do to allow the process to happen in way that’s transparent and that will allow the public to trust the process.”
https://www.newsobserver.com/news/business/article246839397.html
I think that we have to be honest here and say that anytime we hear this sort of language, the real intention is to slow it to a stop, or hope that it stops itself for economic reasons while it’s being slowed.
I think that Raleigh doesn’t have enough experience with projects of this scale, and resistance to it are just coming at it from all sides of a broad coalition now. My money is on this being dead.
I don’t know how I feel about it because, on the one hand, I want to see much more infill investment in the city to grow our tax base and slow the ever expanding sprawl. On the other hand, I want to see massive investment like this project happen in our actual downtown, not a mile south of it.
As for affordable housing, this is probably the trickiest and stickiest issue of them all. If the city doesn’t create more revenue for itself, it has no funding mechanism to address affordable housing. If it pushes forward with developments like this one, it risks elevating property values, thus making affordable housing more difficult to achieve. Adding to these woes are many decades of a narrative that all taxation is bad & “entitlement” programs are un-American.
We’re definitely going to have to thread that needle to make all of this work.
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Thought this was past all the NIMBY BS.
https://www.newsobserver.com/news/business/article246839397.html
In ongoing hearings, residents and city staff say Downtown South plans need to slow down
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The TIF funding deserves further scrutiny. Any commitment of city funds (which TIF definitely is!) should not be rushed. But as far as the development, to me they have shown enough, or nearly enough, detail for the properties north of 40 and east of Saunders, to give it the OK, as long as they are committing to build the street network and public spaces as shown in their site plans.
However, from what I’ve seen, they have provided almost no detail for the stuff south of 40 and west of Saunders - and yet they’re requesting 40 story zoning there. That just doesn’t seem right. Show us what the street grid will be. What will the public realm be like. Give us something to hold you to. You almost get the impression they are being intentionally vague about it because, to be honest, the developers would benefit! from having a massive upzoning with absolutely zero commitment regarding what they will do there.
I think all the impacts and negatives of developing at this scale in this location can be mitigated so this is an unambiguous win. But there are just too many unknowns and not enough commitments yet from the development team that tapping the brakes is reasonable here.
Maybe break up the rezoning into its three separate districts, and proceed first with the Penmarc area, where we have the greatest level of detail?
NHE was rezoned as a PD, if I recall. That involves a greater level of detail than a plain zoning. Something more like that.
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Perhaps affordable housing for developers without government aid should be sale/resale at the conforming housing limits.
They never left…They will howl until this project breaks ground and will do whatever they can to slow it down. Hopefully, the Council sees the economic impact it will have (not to mention tax revenue…which is going to be needed); placate them with their ‘community listening tour’ and the vote to move forward before year end.
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I just want to point out that, between the activists who are worried about the environment plus vague development plans, the careful planners who want to make sure Downtown South happens in the smoothest way possible, and the people who are like “LET’S BUILD THIS NOW SCREW THE NIMBYS”, I’m seeing one of those 3 groups having an entirely different conversation that’s not based on specific issues and (lack of) design features.
And that side is not the activists.
The City is considering overlay districts that could make affordable housing a viable thing in this district, plus we deserve more detailed plans (and sexy renderings!!) about how DoSo will actually be laid out. What’s wrong with just taking those ideas to come forth with a specific proposal? Like @orulz said, sure there’s lots of things that sound cool about Downtown South, but there’s also a lot of unknowns that were more clear before Council approval for places like the North Hills expansions. What’s wrong with asking for more details?
It’s from a different thread, but I think what John said about how Chapel Hill once opposed an urban interstate but also has development policies like form-based codes is good to keep in mind here, too:
If Kane incorporates those community ideas into his designs and people still complain, then that’s showing bad faith that is probably worth ignoring. But for now, aren’t those people bringing up genuine questions that could be answered in cool and meaningful ways? I don’t understand why so many people here are jumping to that conclusion now without making room for that.
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Yeah but affordable housing was irrelevant in the first place…
True intention slip-up from the ‘Downtown South-Citizen Engagement’ group:
Funny how they went from ‘We just want to be involved’ to ‘Not in my backyard.’
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And an addition making a bid to attract a real pro-team not some minor league team enough of that bull we have enough of that to the point we can’t have anyone. So we need to attract a Major League Baseball team preferably baseball. That would be a great fit here, considering the great northern population here who need to feel at home not for them but for us so we’ll have more to do for us citizens and don’t forget the tourists!!!
City Council’s agenda for tomorrow (Nov. 4) had an interesting set of memos about DTS. They’re basically calling OneWake’s bluff, taking their requests seriously (unlike @Francisco’s post apparently, lmao), and are coming up with ways to knead them into the strategy for planning and funding Downtown South.
Some key excerpts:
Are something like TIFs a viable option for making DTS happen?
What's needed to get an Opportunity Zone grant? How can residents be informed about DTS?
Can the city make a Community Benefits Agreement (CBA) with Kane et al.?
These are my takeaways from this document:
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Wake County needs all-new rules for how TIGs work, which will take time, probably by next summer. Note they’re talking about tax investments grants, which would be different from TIFs that several people mentioned here. In TIGs, the city would reimburse Kane for eligible expenses instead of paying for all fees upfront and getting into debt.
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If Kane wants a P3 for federal grant funding, he needs to solve the TIG issue and work with the city to create a custom public engagement plan. This public review is required for the city to enter a development agreement with Kane Realty.
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CBAs could let OneWake enforce project requirements they want and give Kane Realty peace and quiet as they build DTS. State law prohibits cities from being a part of CBAs, so I think this means OneWake can’t drag the city into their potential negotiations.
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I actually just got back from a work trip in Atlanta last week. Stayed in the Fourth Ward area. Very very cool city based on my quick experience. Recreating some elements from the ‘Beltine’ trail & Historic Fourth Ward Park would seem perfect for the greenway and park areas of Downtown South. Wonder if those people have been to Atlanta?
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If you took photos, please put them on the show off things from other cities topic. 
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Yes, I’ve been to Atlanta, I’ve been to the Fourth Ward, and Centennial Olympic Park many times. Sometimes I want Raleigh to be a Atlanta IMO, bunch of citizen and tourist attractions!!!
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I bet they haven’t. They’re probably the same sheltered pearl-clutchers who only go to New York for the Olive Garden in Times Square, so they don’t bother to get out of their comfort zones and see how much better things can be.
…which is a shame. I’ve only walked around there once, but I love it (and downtown/midtown Atlanta in general)! The Triangle deserves a historic, artistic environment like there that we can brag about to the world.
EDIT: reworded for overly broad insult (sorry!); see below.
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Maybe someone should invite Bonner to the next MeetUp and clue him in on the possibilities of a Raleigh ARTery from DTS through DIX to DTR…now, that might be worth some tax granting!
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GenX – what the hell man!! 
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For real, what did Gen X ever do to deserve such a dis?? 
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