FWIW, I’d prefer the single-lane roundabout a la Hillsborough St, as you mentioned.
As for pedestrian safety, I guess we’ll have to agree to disagree. The only place we’ll cross Glenwood on foot is right in front of Lola’s where there’s a refuge island—which could be accomplished in front of the Rialto with an extended median and elimination of the left turn lane that comes with a roundabout.
EDIT: I realize I may have misunderstood your comment. I’d agree that a multi-lane would be dangerous for pedestrians, sorry if I misrepresented what you were saying.
I guess my point is that, all else equal, a roundabout is not better than a traffic signal from a pedestrian standpoint. Its main benefit is that it allows smoother traffic flow, and secondarily that the island in the middle can be a feature/landmark…
I’ll certainly allow that the current intersection, as built, is pretty bad, but even preserving the four lane traffic on Glenwood, I fear/think that there may be a far more conventional, far simpler, and yet far more exciting (and far more boring at the same time), solution to this problem. Rebuilding it as a modern signalized intersection would be MUCH MORE of an upgrade for all users: motorists, pedestrians, transit riders, and cyclists alike.
I dub it: The End of Five Points.
It’s not drawn in microstation - but there it is. Five points is no more; gone is an interesting “quirk” of 1920s-1950s era traffic engineering in Raleigh: it’s now a boring old four-legged intersection. But look at all that new pedestrian space!! The intersection can breathe now! Good riddance, I say.
The city acquiring the Walgreens to realign Fairview would be an awesome opportunity for a mixed use redevelopment, including a public parking facility.
This is the sort of thing that big cities (Washington DC, Chicago, New York, London, etc etc etc) do when presented with a situation such as this one: Don’t make it way way more complex with some crazy two laned roundabout, or underpass, or any such nonsense.
The real problem currently here is the extra two legs of the intersection and the skew of Whitaker Mill. You may be able to eliminate Fairview entirely at Scalles if the land deal with Walgreens doesn’t work out. I’d also go for making Glenn a dead end (to cars, still have a walking path) before it reaches Glenwood. All these streets are blocks, it’s not too inconveniencing to go around.
This is very random, but has it ever been said that this is actually a six-pointed intersection why is it called five points haha
At some point in history (1910ish?) it was a real five points intersection. The name just stuck, I guess.What’s called White Oak Road today was actually one of the legs, and the northern leg of Glenwood, and Glenn Street, both didn’t exist yet.
I think the southern leg of Glenwood might have been Saunders Street. Or at least that’s what it was called downtown.
Actually if you still include White Oak Road today as one of the legs, it’s a seven pointed intersection. There are a couple other famous examples of 7 pointed intersections I’m aware of in Northern Virginia: Seven Corners, and Clarendon Circle.
Glenn and Fairview could indeed be dead-ended, maybe that would make sense.
I’d be a shame to pass up the opportunity to redevelop the Walgreens, though! Getting a public parking structure at Five Points is kind of key for this area (no other way to get needed bus/bike lanes on Glenwood)- and this would be the time to make that happen.
Taming the Five Points intersection itself is a key part of this, too. Walking across Glenwood from Walgreens to Lily’s, etc feels dangerous today; with a reconfigured intersection, walking across the street from a parking structure would be no problem.
From Oberlin to Peace, Glenwood appears to be about a 78’ right-of-way.
I don’t think that’s enough room for everything plus the generous 20’ median that exists today. If it’s feasible (and acceptable) to rip up the median on New Bern to build BRT, then ripping up the median here for a bike/bus overhaul should be feasible as well.
For me, climate resiliency, cyclist safety, and good transit trumps aesthetics, period.
Generally, I do agree 100% but here I feel like it’s more of a neighborhood feeling with the towering than New Bern which is a commercial corridor if that makes sense.
Additionally, how many busses, multi modal activity do we have on this section of Glenwood. And how much delay do we have to warrant the need for a full time bus lane?
I like this except there’s no reason to cause Fairview to continue onto Whitaker Mill. Keep Scales St the nearest intersection. Cars won’t use this as much to get to Capital. Heading south, they would continue onto Wade Avenue. Heading North and drivers would continue onto Whitaker Mill Rd. Neighbors there might be ok with that since it will cut down on the cut through traffic through Fairview. I would also close off Glenn Ave.
I would pull the corner tighter to force cars to slow down to make a right onto Whitaker. Trying to cross when traffic is coming directly at you is pretty concerning.
I’m sure it wouldn’t be met, but I was considering it being better since a stop sign wouldn’t work here. Dynamic stop signs would be good but they wouldn’t work in this intersections because Alexander Rd/Myrtle Ave are not directly across from each other. Traffic flows on Glenwood during peak times (stop signs not on) while stop signs are in place during non-peak times. The kid raced on a Sunday which would qualify as non-peak. Higher congestion leads to slower speeds.
Also to note, there are plenty of other residential roads where people really speed when they shouldn’t. I think enforcement does need to be set up since we won’t be able to stop speeders everywhere and won’t be able to drastically change all of the roads around. It won’t solve all of our problems but a rotation of higher speed intersection speed traps will put it in driver’s minds that a cop may be hiding up the way.
The problem with closing Glenn is the bank drive through and parking lot. Although accessing that through the neighborhood would work fine, the bank and the neighborhood might not be too keen about that.
Similarly, I continued Fairview so through traffic wouldn’t divert onto Scales or cut through the Walgreens parking lot.
If opposition to both of these issues can be overcome, then sure - close 'em both!
Having lived in the area for years I love this crazy intersection. You can sit at the church and watch the craziest shit happen. Leave it alone, it’s a unique gem.
the city is rolling out their 15 minute Glenwood bus route package this fall with longer operating hours so it’s going to be a 15 minute frequency pretty soon
Which I’ve always kind of wanted… Something about a Volvo station wagon… all that cargo space, AWD, and a little more ground clearance than you’d expect… I’m now even more impressed
Arguably the safest manufacture on the road too. They invented the 3 point seat-belt (still used today) in the 50s then waived the patent so other manufactures could use it and the list goes on… Shatter proof windshields, side impact airbags, collision avoidance.
Ok, how about the original plan for connecting Fairview to Whitaker Mill (through Walgreens) instead of to Glenwood? This doesn’t seem like it should be a show stopper from a school bus routing standpoint…
Presumed old bus route in orange
Suggested new bus route in purple
orange
purple