Where is Lake Park? I don’t think anything with .73 sq miles would be considered a city
Also - Would be interested to see Raleigh’s density numbers with Umstead excluded from the area.
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Unlike you I am not being critical of either Raleigh or Cary. I like them both just fine as they are. It was you who brought up the density of Cary. Most of Cary is almost exactly the same as most of Raleigh. Raleigh has more than twice the suburbs of Cary. Raleigh is vibrant I suppose in several places. Cary is a fun place to live. Believe it or not some people want different things. I enjoy working in downtown Raleigh but I wouldn’t live there for anything. And you know what? It’s okay for you to want what makes you happy, and it’s okay for people like me to want what makes us happy. Cary doesn’t want to be that kind of city. It’s all good.
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Lake Park is a village located in Union County about 15 miles from Charlotte. I used the term cities loosely to mean any incorporated area. Even Cary doesn’t call itself a city. Likes to be referred to as the Town of Cary.
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I lived and moved from Cary after about 5 years in the early aughts. Nice place to live, as you state, since much of Cary is similar to Raleigh’burbs but the distinctions I call out do exist and are, as you say, a matter of personal preference. I respect Cary’s density and acknowledge town of Cary just as it prefers…My belief is Cary prefers to remain a (neighborly large) town perfectly situated near a world class economic engine driver in RTP with the benefits of adjacency to two emerging city centers (surrounded by more suburbs). Nothing wrong with that…
We can all agree to disagree on the concept of 
city. Pile on as you see fit.
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Well, that was an unnecessary dig. At almost 200,000 Cary is indeed a city even though technically a town by its charter. Decent density for a southeastern city also.
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We have proof through data that it’s possible to have over 5,000 pp/m2 and still be a completely suburban development model city. Municipalities in land constricted &/or water constricted areas have been building single family homes to this sort of density for decades. I grew up in a CA town built on this model in the 1960s where our 5500 sf lot (1/8 acre) was pretty typical. When my family moved to Raleigh in the mid 70s, we did so to a city where the typical SFH lot was at least double and often times triple that size or more.
Given that suburban development in the Triangle today more closely mimics lot sizes of Silicon Valley from the 60s, it’s easy to imagine those suburbs surpassing the Triangle’s legacy cities’ and suburbs’ densities. You can see this play out just by pulling up Google maps and looking at the aerial comparison of legacy and new build suburbia that makes up the lion’s share of our county.
Nonetheless, the density alone doesn’t tell the entire story. There are other metrics as well, and other measurements that tell other parts of the story. Walkscore is one such metric, as are FAR of new development. Of course, we can also create a laundry list of amenities that these cities offer. Someone already mentioned Umstead Park. While it certainly drags the ppl/m2 metric for Raleigh, so do other amenities like the state fairgrounds, the stadium/arena complex, the museum of art property, and all its colleges and university lands.
Getting back to the ppl/m2 metric, what I really pay attention to is how Raleigh is densifying and improving its number over time. This is much easier to do apples/apples now that annexations are but a trickle of what they used to be.
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It’s a city by population standards, but it does not look, function, feel, or operate like a city outside of this park. In my book that’s just a populous suburb. The digs really write themselves.
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Just for future reference… The State Fairgrounds and the Carter Finley stadium complex are not in Raleigh city limits. PNC arena is in the city limits.
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I think most of us know this already, but there’s no legal difference in NC for city vs town. Cary can change their name to City of Cary anytime they want. But it’s not a popular idea because they think town sounds charming and safe and upscale, and city sounds dangerous and scary and gritty. I’m mostly making that last part up, but most of the discussions they’ve had are along those lines. Also, and I know this is shocking to several people on here, but a city doesn’t just mean an endless dense downtown like it’s Coruscant or something. Raleigh, Cary, and plenty of other places have compact downtowns and then suburbs, rural areas, woods, etc. Of course Cary and Raleigh are different in many ways, and that’s completely fine. I feel very fortunate to live close to both.
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It just depends on what you call a city. Is Henderson, Nevada a city? Or Katy, Texas? They have hundreds of thousands of people!
Otherwise we’re all just talking past each other.
The density numbers are interestingly close, I’ll give you that, but I’ll try to add a bit of nuance to the Cary vs Raleigh discussion.
Cary is increasingly made up of HOA protected, garage fronting, cul de sac filled winding neighborhoods that seem to be much more massive and sprawling than many of the older neighborhoods that make up Raleigh. In both cities, the further you go out (North for Raleigh, West for Cary) the newer the developments and thus typically more garage bays, and enforced HOAs. Although both cities were tiny 100 years ago, Raleigh seems to have a larger share of older housing stock on smaller lots that do not have garages, and thus feels more urban even if the form is SFH in both cases.
Raleigh is also much more progressive as of late with ADU reform, parking requirements, missing middle, etc. I’m currently waiting for Cary to get off their high horse and let us build the number of parking spaces we deem necessary for an upcoming 12,000 sf office building, instead of telling us we have to provide 40.
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Cary and Apex have done a remarkable job managing their crazy rapid growth. I can remember when both cities were less than 10,000 people. Heck, Apex may not have had 2,500. I never tried to compare Cary to Raleigh. Simply said Cary was a well run city. They have planned accordingly what the market has demanded the last 40 years. Good luck finding old ITB type neighborhoods in Cary, they never existed in the first place.
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That why Raleigh Cary and Durham Chapel Hill metro should merge. Because with the this growth we could could outpace them. And since Cary and Apex have exceeded 100,000 for urban area more than the 50,000 needed. And because they both marketed themselves as a suburb. And proclaimed themselves as a family oriented towns.
Or has Cary and Apex expedited the building of gluttonous suburban sprawl that will be blighted and look ripe for bulldozing, like the Western Blvd K Mart, in 20-30 years?
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That’s funny because in Wake County, Raleigh is by far the King of " gluttonous" suburban sprawl with much more than Cary and Apex combined. In my job i can easily see developing projects coming down the pipeline and Raleigh has an extensive amount coming soon on the fringes of town.
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Thank goodness Raleigh is working hard to offer downtown urban dense living as an alternative. We need more of that including high rise condos for more ownership downtown. Also, isn’t Raleigh’s density overall affected by the number of large parks inside the city limits?
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Again. I am not attacking Raleigh. I think Raleigh is great and is doing just fine. I am just defending Cary (and now Apex) from the overdramatic statements made by a few up above. Raleigh is clearly doing more in increasing the urbanization near it’s downtown core. Great. Now let’s talk about how great Raleigh is doing without demonizing Raleigh’s neighbors. Raleigh will always be some years ahead of Cary and Apex in doing the kinds of things that are finally happening downtown. Mostly because the need is much greater in Raleigh than in Apex and Cary. Cary is doing a lot in it’s downtown core but it’s vastly smaller than Raleigh’s. Fun fact: Part of Umstead Park is in the Cary city limits (71 acres).
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There’s no doubt that most of Wake County (including Raleigh) is suburban. In fact, it’s often cited as a backhanded pejorative when Raleigh is described and compared to other cities. This doesn’t necessarily mean that Raleigh and Wake have substantially more suburbia than most American cities’ metros (news alert: they all do!); it’s usually just another way of saying that Raleigh’s core isn’t comparable to other cities/metros its size. While that narrative may linger well beyond the truth in the future, Raleigh needs to keep focused on improving its core, adding more residents and experiences, and giving folks a reason to live, work, and play in it. The rest will just have to work itself out, and the city’s own marketing arm needs to take an active role in changing the conversation about our city over time. Raleigh is way too large to just rest on its family friendly narrative. That alone isn’t going to cut it as the city continues to grow.
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if you consider unmitigated ultra low density sprawl - “remarkable” then sure, they are doing great.
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They’re sprawly suburbs that are nice if you’re into that kind of thing. Raleigh is the city that anchors them (along with Durham), and it has its own suburban areas within city limits as well. This is a weird debate.
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