Right, I thought this thread was for useless Raleigh vs Charlotte “debates” not useless Raleigh vs Raleigh-suburb debates 
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Cary appears to be looking to make changes to the unsustainable sprawl structure they’ve had. They have worked with Urban3 to forecast revenue for their land. It’s no coincidence that they’ve recently started working to build up their downtown.
More info on what Urban3 is and how it’s used: Suburbia is Subsidized: Here's the Math [ST07] - YouTube
Unfortunately, I don’t know what the numbers are for Cary and wasn’t able to find them, but I’d be super interested to see what they had to say.
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Can probably find numbers in this presentation. Includes a good graphic of land productivity in Wake County as a whole.
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I think it’s a little more coincidental than you think. I have either worked and/or lived in Cary (Raleigh too) for 30 years and Cary has been trying for decades to get downtown growth. Fact is nobody was interested. Over the decades Cary has invested in the new Cary municipal complex improvements, Cary Arts Center, The Cary Theater, streetscapes improvements along Academy and Chatham, the new Cary Regional Library, and the Downtown Cary Park. Over 100 million dollars of public money. It’s only just been the last 5 years or so that real interest in downtown Cary has emerged and evolved into what we have today.
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I grew up in Cary and was there until I was about 13, lived in Apex until I was 23, and then lived in Morrisville for another couple of years. So, I know a lot about that area as well.
It’s not really about whether or not people are interested. It’s about what makes a sustainable cost-effective city. I disagree about coincidence here. It’s not coincidental at all that Cary realized sprawl is actually a net tax negative for their city. Especially considering that they reached out to Urban3 for consulting on it.
The people that live in Cary obviously prefer single-family homes and HOA-regulated neighborhoods with governing docs. That’s why they moved to Cary. However, the leaders of the town also realized that this is not a sustainable practice and are making moves quickly to make sure they don’t bankrupt their city.
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I think it’s fair to say that the sprawl in Cary is not much different then the sprawl in North Raleigh, or pick your suburb / town (WF, Holly Springs, Apex, Clayton etc.), or most other north american cities for that matter.
I am thankful for these suburbia type places that are making efforts to improve or lean into their core downtown areas. Cary (I do like to pick on them, but it’s mostly just for fun), even Morrisville (who’s downtown was nothing more then a post office along some RR tracks, is making an effort), and within Raleigh places like North Hills.
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Well it’s not coincidental that they recently started to build up their downtown due to the results of the studies of Urban3. They have been trying to build up their downtown for decades. Most of the things happening now or recently were planned before this presentation 2 years ago. Of course the difference in our opinions of which came first (the chicken or the egg?) doesn’t really matter as it is happening either way. And it’s a good thing. I drive through downtown nowadays and enjoy seeing the many people strolling around at all hours.
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Sunbelt cities are particularly egregious. And I agree, North Raleigh/fringe Raleigh is just as awful as the entirety of Cary.
In Wake Co., when something was developed is a bigger predictor of its qualities than where it was developed. For example MacGregor Downs in Cary is similar to North Ridge in Raleigh because they were developed in the same time frame.
New developments in the county are similar to each other in home styles, lot sizes, community amenities, etc., regardless of whether they are in Holly Springs, Wendell, West Cary, or wherever.
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I think Cary’s a better city than Raleigh.
Discuss.
This is my thoughts exactly. I live out here in the Apex Friendship area and, being equidistant to both, see Apex and Holly Springs sprawling at breakneck speed on the regular. It is refreshing to see both Apex and Holly Springs actively planning and starting to implement their respective long-term downtown plans (Apex and Holly Springs). It will be especially interesting to see how downtown Apex develops whenever the S-Line becomes a reality as I believe their downtown area has been earmarked for a potential train station.
Speaking of sprawl, I’d be remised if I didn’t bring this up. At the most recent Apex town council meeting they reviewed rezoning cases for the big new ‘Apex Gateway’ expansion into Chatham county as well as the off again/on again/might be happening finally massive Veridea development. This basically confirms Apex isn’t stopping the sprawl anytime soon either.
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I enjoyed the bander on here. Apex is growing by leaps and has become Cary II. I grew up in Raleigh and Cary. Lived in Apex when you had to drive to Cary for a movie. Looks like that will be the case again. Cary is a great place to raise a family. I have friends near Cary’s downtown and its got some cool places for food & drinks near their downtown. Apex has a great downtown. I lived in downtown Raleigh for a long time and loved Bogarts. Man, I miss that place but Mo Joe’s is still there. The Shroom. There is no worse sprawl than the Buffaloe/Forestville Road. Building permit activity is highest along 540 corridor. I will find that map of building permit activity for Wake County and downtown Raleigh is not where the permits are.
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Yep I know the feeling. I was born in Raleigh and grew up in the Cary area. My family and I used to go to First Baptist Church in downtown Cary when I was a little kid. To see what that stretch of Cary has become just in my lifetime is incredible.
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Cary, Morrisville, Apex do sprawl rather tastefully in my opinion. Better than comparable demographic areas of north Raleigh. I love some nice clean suburban lifestyle centers. Apex’s Beaver Creek, Cary’s Fenton top o da list. Pittsboro even building a good one called Mosaic. The land of milk and honey ……
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To be fair, you pull one permit per house out in the burbs.
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i know some months back someone posted a traffic flow map of ITB to OTB patterns…i assume it was legit. with most of new downtown development having parking decks is it likely (or unlikely) that the denser DT residents will still be turning an ignition key in the morning and driving from DT to…a hospital…all minus Wake Med of which are OTB i think. a wake county school…many OTB. an office park…plenty OTB. i cant say for certain but my guess would be that most moving into DTR are younger and single-er with kids.
Well our building is a wide variety: empty nester, retired, families with kids, Campbell law students, downtown office workers, state legislators,etc
The numbers don’t lie. There are not many 200+ SFD subdivisions anymore. There are only so many 5 story+ buildings in Downtown Raleigh. Wake Forest is hot. Holly Springs also all along 540. SPRAWL. Per NCDOT Wake County population will double in 30 years and 75% is along 540…
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Raleigh suburbs. Future growth coming soon. New streets in bold red.
Northeast Raleigh
Southeast Raleigh
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There was just an article in TBJ about more townhouses in the SE corner of the Capital/540 interchange.
https://www.bizjournals.com/triangle/news/2023/03/09/mill-creek-residential-townhomes-raleigh.html
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