Moore Square

Quick thought on teenagers and whether or not they have/need “things to do.” I know this is a bit off topic, but it’s relevant to a broader conversation about placemaking. And full disclaimer, I got my first cell phone at sixteen, it was a Nokia flip phone, and I didn’t get a smartphone until a couple years into college.

Personally, I think American teenagers are at a particular disadvantage in terms of social lives and entertainment because of the built environment (yep, it’s one of those rants). Let’s pretend you’re fifteen, too young to drive, and you live here:

How in the world do you have even the slightest bit of independence? Unless all your friends live in that same neighborhood (not very likely), you need your parents to give you a ride anywhere and everywhere that you want to go. And even if they did all live in that neighborhood, what are you going to do? Walk in circles every day? Maybe ride bikes (except not on the main roads because there’s no sidewalks and the cars are all going 50mph)? You could play basketball in the driveway, assuming that’s your thing and you’re up for doing it for hours at a time every day. You could maybe go to the neighborhood pool a few times, sure, but not every day, and not in the winter, and only if your HOA allows teens to be there unattended. So if you need some kind of entertainment that is eclectic and varied and relatively unsupervised, then yeah, you’re gonna play video games and stare at your phone all day.

By contrast, we were in Scotland a couple weeks ago, and man, kids were just roaming everywhere. We saw kids without adult supervision on sidewalks, buses, trains, and not just in the big cities. We took a train from Edinburgh to St. Andrews one day, and a group of like eight teenage girls boarded at a small town and went two stops down to a different small town. At a different stop, some boys boarded to go watch a soccer match in Dundee. We saw kids taking the bus to part-time jobs, to meet up with friends, to head home from school. The level of independence kids had there was insane, because they didn’t have to rely on their parents for mobility. And, surprise, most of them didn’t have their noses in their phones the whole time because they were out being social.

So yeah, I think the whole “kids these days just want to look at their screens all day” trope is mostly self-fulfilling. A lot of them don’t have anything else to do, so what do you expect? But, if you give them options for places where they can safely hang out unattended (like Moore Square) and ways to get to those places, then maybe they’ll stop looking at their damn phones so much.

Oh, and no, a shopping mall with a 5:30p curfew doesn’t count. Confine a kid in any one space for several hours with no way to go anywhere else and obviously they’re gonna start messing around and causing trouble. Again, kids need options, and ways to get between those options. That’s all.

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Just hopping in here to say that in general I think Moore Square is fine and I don’t really have an issue with the unhoused folks who are hanging out on some of the benches. I did run into an issue last time I tried to take our 4yo to the slide feature where a group of people were smoking weed in a rather sketchy manner between the slide and the restroom/square burger building, but apart from that the situation isn’t the bleak dystopia it seems like it’s being painted by the N&O. This morning there were multiple groups of school/other kids using the park to play kickball and soccer, and the usual Jehovah’s Witnesses tabling at the southwest corner.

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A post was merged into an existing topic: Zoning and Density

The blue dots are RPD incidents year-to-date. Moore square looks like it suffers from being too close to Fayetteville, Wilmington, and Hargett streets, instead of the other way around.

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I’ve been part of some group efforts to feed the homeless at Moore Square before it was renovated; nothing lately though. A lot of homeless folks don’t want the services of some organizations that exist to help them, but that’s a different topic bigger than Moore Square. It’s really too bad that such a nice park really does have some big issues that need addressing. I’ll be interested to see what changes here if/when the proposed developments fronting Moore Square get built. I think with the economy/interest rates/commercial real estate situation currently so bad though, it’ll be years before much changes here.

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Agree that activating the eastern side of the square with hundreds of residents and street level commercial activity will help provide more nearby bodies for Moore Square.

Similarly the hotel planned for the surface parking lot south of the square and a future activation of the strong bones of the now sleeping City Market area under new ownership and/or management will also help.

Great venue for things to happen like Jazz on the Square tonight and events like movie nights. But more use of the lawn during the day will happen when more people live right across the street from this open space.

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This is a fascinating thread, and like others that are topic-adjacent, it feels so…tone deaf. Suggestions that masked teens are terrorizing downtown Raleigh because they’re bored - or that we need to build a Great Wolf Lodge on some vacant downtown parking lot to distract them from criminal mischief is…an interesting take. I find it baffling.

Though the issue surely existed prior to 2020, the number of minors missing from education rolls since Covid is sizeable - NC has the 5th largest population of students who are unaccounted for in the nation. The impact of the pandemic on our children continues to sting: gaps in education, household instability, loss/continuing illness of caregivers, etc., have contributed to this sad situation and have put the futures of a whole lot of kids on a really damaging trajectory. As if all of that wasn’t bad enough, the displacement that has occurred across SE Raleigh over the last decade in particular is really staggering. New developments are great and hoorah and all, but very few around these parts seem to give much consideration as to what happens to all the people who have been displaced by the considerable loss of naturally-occurring affordable housing. I’ve lived and worked downtown for 20+ years now, and I’ve honestly never known things to be this bad. There are so many people in our community who are genuinely suffering, left with little support or hope - where in the world are they supposed to go? People lean on mental illness or substance abuse as culprits, the more bigoted among us have a variety of repugnant takes as to causation, but many of the folks I’ve talked to are homeless because they’ve been displaced and left behind.

I wonder how many armchair planners actually attend public comment sessions in-person - not watching them on YouTube or RTN. The tension and anxiety within Council chambers at these meetings is absolutely palpable. I’ve never felt that, consistently, on such a heightened level - and honestly, it’s pitiful. It seems like a lot of guys on here (and I say “guys” cause seriously why are there so few women) approach downtown, its growth - present and future - like SimCity, and not as a community of street-level, real life, affected human beings.

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Jazz in the Square tonight.

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On the ground view. It’s a great turnout! Wonderful way to spend a cool early fall night.

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My parents made sure that I had something to do as a teen. I had a job as soon as I turned 16.

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Why is everyone so worried about these “teens”? The original post above only mentioned they were supposedly loitering(on a public sidewalk), not that they had harassed anyone or committed any crime. This seems so blown out of proportion. Cities and towns have teens…they will skip school, some will drop out of high school, this isn’t that crazy lol.

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I’m assuming you’re referring to my comment. The times that I’ve personally seen them, they weren’t actively causing trouble but there was a tension there that definitely wasn’t kids just hanging out having fun. My partner has witnessed them selling drugs in the open during the day and groups getting hostile amongst each other.

The only reason I made that comment was based on the public comments from downtown business owners specifically calling out groups of teens beating and stealing from homeless people, stalking delivery people, and assaulting their staff. I was merely stating that I’ve seen these groups and was shocked to hear what else they’ve been doing.

I suggest watching the recording of that meeting to gain context from people who’ve interacted with these groups daily.

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Great first post. Hope you continue to hang around and balance the perspective here. I think there is a lot of focus on developments, tall buildings, etc (although don’t take all these proposals seriously…). At the end of the day a city needs to work for its people.

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The original post above only mentioned they were supposedly loitering(on a public sidewalk), not that they had harassed anyone or committed any crime.

It’s the opposite. They’ve been dealing drugs, harassing the businesses, harassing potential customers, and loitered at very high speaking volumes in front of these businesses enough to cause a 30% drop in business while also making the active patrons of those businesses feel uncomfortable and unsafe.

So you have seen all of this? And can personally account for the numbers? If so, then why are food and beverage sales even higher than pre pandemic levels? why is there a net positive opening in new retail shops in the greater downtown in 2023? Doom & Gloom headlines can scare people, but the actual numbers don’t lie. Raleigh is still growing even with the pockets of “crime”…the 30% drop is such a bullshit number.

In case you want to fact check:

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People in general think Raleigh is boring I feel like no one on this forum can accept the truth. Just go to social media, people think this place is a retirement town it kinda is. I be lying to say it didn’t cross my mind trading in Carolina for Miami.

You seem old fashioned so as a young person let me educate you guys. A job is okay, a phone is necessary in our age of chaos. But your life can’t revolve around that, we need video games, fun parks, etc. I don’t talk about this among my fellow young folks just because it’s not fun to, but deep inside we know it’s boring.

I’ve watched the video. I’m also friends with bartenders who work bars next to the bus station. I have seen the shit they have to put up with on a weekly basis, and have heard their other horror stories. However, kids selling drugs out in the open isn’t crazy or unheard of. It happens in every city, Raleigh has just grown up in a safe bubble until recently.

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Bubbles have to be broken sometimes. That’s how we grow.

You realize that these businesses file taxes, yes? If they’re lying about the numbers, the city would 100% know about it.

Those numbers include Glenwood and The Warehouse district. This is a small pocket of businesses mostly next to the bus station. Additionally, those numbers only go up to June. This most recent issue is something they mention they’ve been dealing with very recently.

I walk by the area twice a day every day. Is it doom and gloom all the time? No. Have things changed? Yes. I have seen the area fine and I’ve seen things hinging on out of control. I can tell you that it’s not just simply “kids selling drugs”.

I have no idea why so many are insinuating that so many business owners and their employees are exaggerating or lying. Ignoring them is a really good way to get them to close up shop.

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