Red Hat Amphitheater and Outdoor Music

The Pub
544

Yes, this notion of closing a street for RHA was made public over a year ago. More recently, perhaps 2 months ago, there was some discussion over closing South vs closing Lenoir.

The single in-person shebang at South Street on a Saturday in the middle of July, after everything was a done deal, being held up as some shining beacon of transparency doesn’t quite hold water to me. I mean, it’s a start - but aren’t we on here mostly opposed to in-person events (such as CACs) being the sole point of public engagement for important city matters? I was out-of-town, family vacation. Haven’t had much success getting in touch with council/staff otherwise. And I have attempted to reach out several times over the course of the year.

Maybe they are just not responding (or only responding with boilerplate) because I am a crackpot? If that’s the case I guess I can’t blame them?

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545

I believe it is the responsibly for the Council and Staff to hear and respond to comments about upcoming projects. It is, however, our responsibility as citizens to stay informed as well. I worked in local government for 13 years and by far the hardest part of the job is with education, education, education. There was always some person or some group who didn’t know about a project that had been talked about ad nauseam in meetings, in the press, etc etc. until the 11th hour. Then they wanted to scream, cry foul and have hissy fits and blame the government for not being open with the process. I saw it over and over. Most people don’t like change. And I get that some people don’t want South Street closed. I want Red Hat DTR. I have been watching this project evolve for over a year. And yes there have been changes. Because it is in my backyard I have watched those changes and I care what happens. I just hope that the few people who woke up from a long nap don’t kill a really good thing that in a few years could be a real positive for Raleigh.

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546

FWIW – I just sent this to the council and let them know I live three blocks from the intersection.

My initial thought was that closing South Street would be terribly inconvenient.

My thinking after having a lot more time to process things is that losing Red Hat Amphitheater would be much worse.

At this point in time (after multiple shootings and stabbings in the same number of nights) we MUST do whatever we can to keep downtown active and vibrant. For me, it’s as simple as that.

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547

I want to thank you for being open minded. And you make a really valid point. The more vibrancy we have especially with after 5 activities, the less nefarious things tend to happen.

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548

I’m thinking I’ll drop it after this post because I don’t know how much clearer I can say it, but it doesn’t have to be an choice between losing the amphitheater and closing South St.

They’ll keep the amphitheater downtown and close South St because that’s the easiest thing to do. Most people won’t care. When 3,000 apartments and hotel rooms are added in a 2 block radius, we’ll think hmm it would be nice if this was still connected, but oh well. And people will do their detour.

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549

What exactly is there that will “fall through” if we don’t pull the trigger right now? When exactly is the deadline, and how was it decided?

The plan seems to be:

  1. Build & open new RHA
  2. Close & tear down old RHA
  3. Build RCC expansion

Is it that big of a deal if the whole process shifts to the right a bit? tell RCC “sorry this might delay your plans a bit.” Have they already started booking larger conventions several years out?

It seems like the only deadline here is one self-imposed by the city. It seems like there is a tremendous amount of anxiety over losing RHA, which is understandable because RHA is important. But I just do not understand why this moment, right now, is “do or die.” It makes no sense.

550

The concern is that the RCC will just say - City didn’t approve the plans to relocate RHA, so we’ll just proceed with the expansion without the headache of relocating RHA.

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551

“The City of Raleigh owns, operates and manages the entire convention and entertainment complex which includes the Raleigh Convention Center, Red Hat Amphitheater, and the Martin Marietta Center for the Performing Arts”

While the entities can of course compete with one another, ultimately there really isn’t this ‘do or die’ scenario under the umbrella of the City - seems it should really be about patience and (the best) plan.

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552

In a perfect world RH moves without closing South Street. All Red Hat lovers are happy. All South Street lovers are happy. That’s the perfect world. The more realistic world is that Red Hat was intended to be a temporary event venue. So no big loss really??? New council comes in. New mayor really kinda sorta not all that big a fan of Red Hat. Says hey folks why don’t we just wait and see if we can’t have something better at Dix Park. Whole project gets put on hold “while we study all options again”. We lose all those bands that are booked. Goodbye RedHat. In life good enough often dies in search of the perfect answer. Is there a more perfect answer to Red Hat. Yeah probably so. But it ain’t going to happen on a time frame that works for this project.

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553

But why? Do you have anything to support this statement other than fear and … vibes?

Like, what projects like this have fallen through in such a way? I’m not talking about developments that fail to get financing or even private developments that failed due to NIMBYism. I mean projects where planning, funding, and execution are fully under City control.

Dix Park → sent back, delayed, came out significantly improved
Fayetteville Street → happened as planned
Original RCC → happened as planned
RCC Mariott hotel → ugly as sin but by God it happened as planned

I mean sure there probably are some, but I’m not coming up with any good examples off the top of my head. The only one I can come up with was the original “Lightner Public Safety Building” which failed less because of overthinking and more because it was a poorly conceived project with some nonsensical requirements that wound up blowing the budget.

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554

…And 10 years later they start building the Dix Park Venue.

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555

Well…in the development world things don’t turn on a dime. It’s a real nice thought to say oh yeah I think a Red Hat Amphitheater would go here. Then I got to do some due diligence which includes preliminary site layout, drainage, hazards on site, topo, possible zoning or use changes if needed. That could take a good year. Then if all that is ok then I need to go though ASR and get my permitting started. Again another good year. This is if all goes well. On and then guess what…the neighbors HATE THAT LOCATION. Well dang…developer pulls out again and we get to start all over again. It all sounds oh so easy until you do it.

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556

I like what you are getting at @orulz so let me try and add my two cents. Although these are guesses, I do feel like financial incentives are a key driver here.

From my perspective, you have a couple of moving parts here; The Omni Hotel, the RCC expansion, and RHA. From what I’ve seen by paying attention to all this stuff is that it would NOT be a good move to expand the RCC without having that 500-room hotel, preferably from a higher-end brand. Without it, we wouldn’t land large conventions to fill the space and this is a bad use of public money.

Chicken and egg situation, of course as a large hotel isn’t going to be built without reason to fill it so they’d want some assurances of a commitment, like a larger convention center. We know that the city (county maybe?) has given Omni some financial incentives, I think even paid for some pre-development work, to open up. I am guessing there are deadlines in those contracts here.

Working backwards, the Omni and the RCC expansion, ideally, need to open at the same time or at least around the same time. Therefore, with some contracts already signed with, I bet, some delivery date in print, that is why we cannot delay here.

So, again guessing, working backwards, when you consider a date, let’s say 2028, that the RCC and Omni need to both be open, and you consider construction schedules, you can see our construction window here for moving the RHA.

On the other end, we all might think that we can just skip a concert season or two or three while we get the amphitheater right. I don’t think anyone wants to play with the small businesses futures as well as Live Nation skipping over us and all the momentum that was built since the RHA has built since it opened is now gone. We’d have to start from scratch and go through that pain again.

Just offering my take here that the window seems very small. Could the city have handled it better? Sure, but I think the main drive here is probably the deal made with Omni and the domino effect it makes on the RCC and now RHA.

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557

Well said on the backstory and where we are.

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558

I have a :bird: that informs me that Dix Park DOES NOT WANT an amphitheater, and will not continue to entertain discussion of moving RHA or a separate, future venue into the park. Just FYI. Dix will not be an option for this nor any large-scale music venue. I was told Dix Park Conservancy will be making a statement about this soon.

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559

Good, it doesn’t need one nor the “required” parking infrastructure that would come with it and destroy it’s potential and natural beauty.

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560

The press releases regarding the Omni all suggest a 2027 opening date, while the new RCC is expected in 2028. It is a reasonably likely that these two are somewhat tied together in some sort of incentives deal, it doesn’t seem like an absolutely simultaneous opening is needed.

If this is what’s behind it, and there’s no turning back, then so be it - but we’re talking four-year timeframes and the ASR for RCC was only submitted 22 days ago - so I would hope/guess that there might still be time to change course.

I wouldn’t advocate nor support any such thing. We should do this with an absolute minimum, ideally zero, missed concerts. If a several-week delay to reconsider the RHA location really does have the domino effect of a multi-year closure of RHA then no thanks, build it now.

But who other than people on this board have ever actually insinuated that this is what’s on the line? Was this what they were saying at “Saturday on South”? It feels like an unrealistic doomsday scenario to me.

They were still all-in on the plan to close lenoir street until when, late April or early May? They didn’t fully commit to pursuing the alternative closing South Street until some time in June. From that point it was about a month until they had the ASR submitted. My guess is it would take them about that long - a month - to get a new ASR in for a different site.

Current timelines say that the New RHA has to be ready by Spring 2026. Let’s say early May. That’s 21 months. Original RHA came together pretty quickly IIRC, although we can probably expect a little longer construction for a permanent venue. Are timelines that horrendously tight that we can’t afford a month? If so, sigh.

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561

Let’s consider what we don’t know, the city and other stakeholders most likely looked at multiple locations years ago after deciding to keep RHA. There may be environmental or other issues with the other city-owned properties that are nearby that prevent the city to stick to the strict timeline set in stone.

I doubt any of the parties involved were/are willing to buy private property to have the perfect spot.

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562

Yes, that is what they were saying. DRA and other groups we like are also saying that on social media. It’s not just us.

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563

It is a very very realistic scenario if we don’t pursue the South Street closure. I’d even go as far as saying it’s more likely than not.

This is not just a building or a development. It’s relationships, agreements, momentum, and the small businesses in the area. The risk/reward to put all of that on the line for a chance that we can get something a little better is heavily weighted towards the plan that we have in place.

It is just not worth it.

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